AAR: TOC (Matt Watson) Tactical Carbine II, Kearneysville, WV 7-19-2020

erwos · Jul 20, 2020

AAR is here:
https://thehebrewhammer.net/2020/07/20/toc-tactical-carbine-ii-aar/

I had a great time at the class and learned a lot, but that heat and humidity was BRUTAL. Two-man room-clearing and bounding overwatch was fun!

Pensfaninmd · Jul 20, 2020

erwos said:
AAR is here:
https://thehebrewhammer.net/2020/07/20/toc-tactical-carbine-ii-aar/

I had a great time at the class and learned a lot, but that heat and humidity was BRUTAL. Two-man room-clearing and bounding overwatch was fun!

Great review and really enjoyed your webpage.. rock on.. :party29:

erwos · Jul 20, 2020

Thanks! It's a labor of love.

AssMan · Jul 20, 2020

Your AARs are the best. I might take their Home Defense course in September.

erwos · Jul 20, 2020

snallygaster said:
Your AARs are the best. I might take their Home Defense course in September.

He talked about this briefly, and it sounded pretty interesting... bring your actual home defense gun and see how it performs in various situations.

Norton · Jul 20, 2020

snallygaster said:
Your AARs are the best. I might take their Home Defense course in September.

I was looking at that too. With my weekend stuff getting canned this Fall, I need to fill in the days with something productive.

hogarth · Jul 20, 2020

Solid review as usual.

I'm curious about this:

"It was interesting to see people not engaging as they moved in, and taking a position in the corner before shooting. I tried to be a little more aggressive." and the short video that went with it.

In the video, it looked like your partner kind of looked at the target you eventually shot, but then did a buttonhook and went for the other target. Then you entered and went right to the target he bypassed and nailed it. However, it didn't look like you checked that hard corner to your right (or maybe gamed it), which is not good. You've got to check that hard corner first AND not advance on the other target you ended up shooting.

If you cannot get to a shoothouse/fighting in structures class, then at least get the "intro to the shoothouse" class with Pat Rogers video available with Panteao Productions. He explains it all in the video. It's not the best substitute for an actual class (what video is?), but it's better than nothing.

gremlin42 · Jul 20, 2020

Great write-up, and the overall site as well.

erwos · Jul 21, 2020

hogarth said:
Solid review as usual.

I'm curious about this:

"It was interesting to see people not engaging as they moved in, and taking a position in the corner before shooting. I tried to be a little more aggressive." and the short video that went with it.

In the video, it looked like your partner kind of looked at the target you eventually shot, but then did a buttonhook and went for the other target. Then you entered and went right to the target he bypassed and nailed it. However, it didn't look like you checked that hard corner to your right (or maybe gamed it), which is not good. You've got to check that hard corner first AND not advance on the other target you ended up shooting.

That wasn't a particularly good run in that video, I completely agree. Should have checked the corner more explicitly (which I did in the run right after that). We were specifically told to only engage one target due to concerns about cross-lane shooting.

The reality, as you know, is that you've got to throw substantial amounts of time at CQB before you can attain any reasonable level of proficiency. A couple hours in the afternoon isn't gonna do that.

hogarth · Jul 21, 2020

erwos said:
That wasn't a particularly good run in that video, I completely agree. Should have checked the corner more explicitly (which I did in the run right after that). We were specifically told to only engage one target due to concerns about cross-lane shooting.

The reality, as you know, is that you've got to throw substantial amounts of time at CQB before you can attain any reasonable level of proficiency. A couple hours in the afternoon isn't gonna do that.

Oh, I understand that there were probably range limitations and such that would keep you from doing a lot of things. The failure to check that hard corner would likely be bad news for you and your partner if a bad guy was there, and advancing even a step or two into the room rather than along the wall could violate the "one meter rule", putting you close to your partner's line of fire if he finished engaging his own target and then engaged the one that you engaged (in a real situation, not here where he wasn't allowed to cross-lane fire). Gotta love when the video captures your poor run and you do a better one before or after, right?

Given the many intricacies of CQB work, I am surprised to see even an inkling of it in a one-day "Carbine 2" course. I assume their "Carbine 1" is also one day? Thinking about my experience with other instructors that use the same nomenclature for their courses, there is NO WAY I'd be doing even a little bit of mock CQB with any of the students in those classes.

I didn't see any reference in the AAR to the cost of the course (?).

erwos · Jul 21, 2020

Cost was $150. In fact, that's pretty much what all his courses run. I received no discounts.

I probably should add that as a section to the template I use.

I agree that I had some "misgivings" about doing CQB stuff with loaded guns with randos, but I had previously determined in the morning that skill level was uniformly high enough that it was going to be safe enough given what we were being asked to do. In my estimation, any shooting class where you run around with loaded guns means assuming some level of risk; some idiot could sling their gun, not put it on safe, and then punch one through your leg/foot if their trigger gets caught on gear, etc.. You know the score. I assume that in a full day CQB class with more free-form exercises, we'd be using sims.

AssMan · Jul 22, 2020

Norton said:
I was looking at that too. With my weekend stuff getting canned this Fall, I need to fill in the days with something productive.

I’m willing to commit. My HD setup is a two stamp gun which means I’ll need to get permission from our federal overlords to transport. PM me if you’re game.

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Norton · Jul 22, 2020

snallygaster said:
I’m willing to commit. My HD setup is a two stamp gun which means I’ll need to get permission from our federal overlords to transport. PM me if you’re game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Is that just for machine guns? I thought that suppressors were at least good to go without our federal masters' permission to pass.

Norton · Jul 22, 2020

snallygaster said:
I’m willing to commit. My HD setup is a two stamp gun which means I’ll need to get permission from our federal overlords to transport. PM me if you’re game.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I'm supposed to have a gig that last weekend in September - I expect I'll hear within the week that it's been canceled.

AssMan · Jul 22, 2020

It’s been a while. I’ll have to check. Standby.

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AssMan · Jul 22, 2020

snallygaster said:
It’s been a while. I’ll have to check. Standby.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Looks like suppressors are GTG, but SBRs require the form 20.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

erwos · Jul 22, 2020

snallygaster said:
Looks like suppressors are GTG, but SBRs require the form 20.

Correct. I had filled out a 5320.20 in case I decided to go with my 5.56 SBRs as my class rifles, but ended up with my non-NFA 5.45 guns for logistical reasons.

Norton · Jul 22, 2020

snallygaster said:
Looks like suppressors are GTG, but SBRs require the form 20.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OK - at least I haven't been committing a federal crime for the last several years :lol2:

AAR: TOC (Matt Watson) Tactical Carbine II, Kearneysville, WV 7-19-2020

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