Who will transfer all HBARs as non regulated

Abacab said:

Then why the hell are you on here? You can't vote for anyone that can change anything, can't buy a gun and don't even pay a dime in state taxes? Is it just to pretend you know something and run your mouth?

I'm done with this conversation. When you have a chip in the game, get back to me.

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Maybe he just likes particpating in a great forum that usually does not descend to personal attack.

lasher9999 said:

Maybe he just likes particpating in a great forum that usually does not descend to personal attack.

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I have never met Mark, but I would buy him a cold one. BTW, great post.

lasher9999 said:

Maybe he just likes particpating in a great forum that usually does not descend to personal attack.

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I think he's just jealous that I have one of these.

mikec said:

I have never met Mark, but I would buy him a cold one. BTW, great post.

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Thanks man, I'd buy a round for you as well... I've even buy Abacab a beer, because it's not personal.

Abacab said:

I'm done with this conversation.

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Goodbye...

We're going in circles here. At the end of the day, MSP currently says lowers are regulated and we have to jump through those hoops. I'm wagering that the reasoning that of all the AR the lower is the one regulated part is that it's the only part with a serial number.

Now why the HBAR is exempt from the regulated status? Balls if I know. But Colt doesn't own a patent/right on the name HBAR. I think the acronym has been around for ages in military usage.

The law doesn't say a lot of things so we're all guessing. And the guessing also includes the MSP and gun dealers who have to enforce and follow the law as vaguely written.

Now if i wasn't still sick, I could go for a beer.

clarksvegas said:

We're going in circles here. At the end of the day, MSP currently says lowers are regulated and we have to jump through those hoops. I'm wagering that the reasoning that of all the AR the lower is the one regulated part is that it's the only part with a serial number.

Now why the HBAR is exempt from the regulated status? Balls if I know. But Colt doesn't own a patent/right on the name HBAR. I think the acronym has been around for ages in military usage.

The law doesn't say a lot of things so we're all guessing. And the guessing also includes the MSP and gun dealers who have to enforce and follow the law as vaguely written.

Now if i wasn't still sick, I could go for a beer.

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I'd be happy to buy you a beer, and explain why the HBAR is exempt.

The HBAR is exempt because although it is an AR-15 variant, it is a "sporter variant" and the law [5-101(p)] has a specific exemption for the HBAR so that no incorrect interpretation could be made to construe this match weapon (so important to service rifle competition) as an assault weapon. The law regulates "specific weapons", which by definition must operate the same, fire the same caliber, and have the same features. MSP bulletin 96-1 clarifies this further.

There is one clear exception to this, they attempted to regulate nearly every AK action based assault rifle ever made (no less than 3 times in the list), despite that, MSP bulletin still shows sporter AK variants as "not regulated"... ya, that blew my mind.

Law's are a goofy thing, they only prohibit activity. Where the law is silent, it is truly silent (e.g. that which is not prohibited is by default, legal.) Now, of course where prohibitions exist, exemptions can exist as well.

Example: The law does not prohibit the carrying of regulated long guns in vehicles. It is silent on the subject of long gun transportation. If you wanted to put a gun rack in the back of your mini cooper and roll around with an AR-15 in the rack, that's perfectly legal.

I used to make the mistake in believing that the law permitted you to do things (growing up in NY it feels that way at times) but that's not the case.

clarksvegas said:

We're going in circles here. At the end of the day, MSP currently says lowers are regulated and we have to jump through those hoops. I'm wagering that the reasoning that of all the AR the lower is the one regulated part is that it's the only part with a serial number.

Now why the HBAR is exempt from the regulated status? Balls if I know. But Colt doesn't own a patent/right on the name HBAR. I think the acronym has been around for ages in military usage.

The law doesn't say a lot of things so we're all guessing. And the guessing also includes the MSP and gun dealers who have to enforce and follow the law as vaguely written.

Now if i wasn't still sick, I could go for a beer.

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During the debate of 1989, Colt requested and received an exemption for the HBARs in the legislation. There is no rhyme or reason for it. It is akin to the designated collector status. No doubt it was to swing some votes and get the target shooter people on board. It used to be that HBARs had to be on the barrel but now it is more a physical description. Why are the .22 AR rifles only 4473s? Because the state AG now says so according to his opinion.

Any ar that is considered a hbar must not have a "gov't" profile barrel. Meaning it can't be turned down underneath the handguard or have a m203 notch. Basically, if the barrel is thinner underneath the handguard than where the gas block goes and/or has a notch, its not an hbar. Also, the manufacture must register it as an hbar before its even shipped out. This is why you cant slap a heavy profile barrel on it and do a 4473. Disclaimer: At least that's my understanding on the subject and could be could be mistaken.

All, please don't fight, if you are upset about someone's transfer policy then just go elsewhere.

I deleted most of the insults to spare the offending parties their own embarrassment. This is not going to be the norm any more. In the future it's only fair to state that we will be concentrating less on doing things like that and more on leaving them up and giving bans, temporary or permanent, for things like serious insults, etc. I don't want to ban anyone over Christmas, really. Please play nice fellas.

BILGERATED said:

Any ar that is considered a hbar must not have a "gov't" profile barrel. Meaning it can't be turned down underneath the handguard or have a m203 notch. Basically, if the barrel is thinner underneath the handguard than where the gas block goes and/or has a notch, its not an hbar. Also, the manufacture must register it as an hbar before its even shipped out. This is why you cant slap a heavy profile barrel on it and do a 4473. Disclaimer: At least that's my understanding on the subject and could be could be mistaken.

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Register it with whom?

Um, ATF. At least thats my understanding. Im pretty sure everything with a serial gets registered with the feds at time of manufacture. Not trying to be an a$$, just trying to clarify what is considered a hbar. Come to think of it, i don't believe it has to be stamped hbar, just needs a heavy profile barrel. Correct me if im wrong. Either way, a knowledgeable dealer can tell if its a hbar or not. The ones that just 77r it are paranoid or misinformed. There are many dealers that know the law.

ATF doesn't care if a rifle is heavy barreled or not. The HBAR is regulated bs is a MD only thing.

A gun maker must maintain a list of serial numbers and where they went, but registered with the government???

BILGERATED said:

There are many dealers that know the law.

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There are also many, that unfortunately, don't know the law. I have a lot of respect for the dealers who are covering their asses, but know the law... this is how they make a living. I don't expect them to put that at risk, for anyone.

I've been wrong before. Ill check into it tomorrow. Im not saying that dealers shouldn't use a cya policy nor do i blame them. It seems that its very easy to lose an ffl. Back to the original subject, the rest of what i said should be correct.

GNLaFrance said:

I believe The Gun Shop (Essex) 410-686-7333 and FreeState Gun Range 410-335-5100 will, but call them first to make sure.

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Not to talk trash about them but I wanted to buy one of their HBARS and they said they sell all AR-15's as regulated because "its better safe than sorry." I like this store and they have great prices, it was a new AR-15 for like $700 and it was NOT a cheap brand. I can't remember which, but they usually run like $950...probably was a Bushmaster. Anyways, I'm going through the regulated bs if its not regulated.

Abacab said:

It's like having a carry permit and open carrying. "But the law doesn't say I can't!!?!?!" Aw, damn, now you lost your permit.

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Uh, I see private security guards open carrying with their MD permits all the time. What are you talking about?

Abacab said:

But hey, it isn't specifically spelled out you can't legally, now is it? Moral victory.

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Uh, that is kinda how the law works.

I do find it interesting that you haven't addressed any of Mark's requests for any sort of written evidence of anything anywhere to back up your claims, so I guess you agree that it's not actually codified in law?

BGOs assume that the MSP will automatically take the most liberal interpretation of the law possible in order to affect the most anti-gun results, but that's really not true. Sure, the upper management of MSP that is politicized by appointment of the governor may be truly anti-gun, but I have yet to find any evidence that the grunts are inherently anti-gun.

For all the debates we've had on this thread over the regulated status of Saiga 12s, I finally said F it, I'm going to get an answer straight from the horse's mouth. I emailed the MSP Licensing Division, and within a day got a response that the Saiga 12 is unequivocally not regulated. Yes, I bought one FTF, and yes, I have both physical and electronic copies of the letter.

Also, long story short, HoCo PD confiscated a handgun of mine several years ago. After going to court (and the judge basically laughing at the cops and the prosecutor for not knowing the law), it wasn't particularly difficult to get the gun back from them, and they didn't even electropencil or otherwise marr the gun. It did take a few tries to get the "right" person on the phone in the property department, but it was nothing like the horror stories I've heard about having to hire a lawyer to get them back, even if not found guilty or convicted of anything.

This is just more BGOS.

Ethan83 said:

Uh, I see private security guards open carrying with their MD permits all the time. What are you talking about?

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They are subjected to a different standard when in the course of their duties. Read the letter that accompanies a Handgun Permit and in particular its references to "brandishing." While the law may allow for open carry, the permit's administrative regulations make it clear that the MSP reserves the right to revoke a permit for anything it calls "brandishing." If you have a Handgun Permit and want to lose it quickly, try carrying openly. Really.

Ethan83 said:

Uh, that is kinda how the law works.

I do find it interesting that you haven't addressed any of Mark's requests for any sort of written evidence of anything anywhere to back up your claims, so I guess you agree that it's not actually codified in law?

BGOs assume that the MSP will automatically take the most liberal interpretation of the law possible in order to affect the most anti-gun results, but that's really not true. Sure, the upper management of MSP that is politicized by appointment of the governor may be truly anti-gun, but I have yet to find any evidence that the grunts are inherently anti-gun.

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There is being "right" and there's being "right but stupid." Sure, I could openly carry my HBAR AR-15, loaded, down the streets of Chevy Chase, Maryland. It's not illegal. Do I want to get arrested, have my gun taken away and then have to fight in court to get the bogus charges thrown out and get my gun back? Not particularly.

No, I don't have any written "evidence" to substantiate what I already know. Is it codified in law? Depends on who is interpreting the law. I could easily make a case that an AR-15 lower receiver constitutes a regulated firearm if it's serialized. Whether or not I agree with it is a different matter. The fact remains that the Maryland State Police considers it regulated. No ifs, ands or buts about. People can pontificate on the forums all day long about how ridiculous it is, that's it's nowhere in the law so on and so forth. Just because someone (who is not in a position to dictate department policy) says it isn't regulated doesn't make it so. The ultimate governing authority in this matter is the MSP - they say it's regulated. Are you going to stand there and make a point by buying stripped lowers ad infinitum doing just 4473s then tell the MSP that's what you're doing? I doubt it - because you know what will happen.

Telling people they can do something knowing full well that the people who matter say it's illegal is reckless and dangerous, in my opinion. People who scream BGOS are usually those standing on the sidelines hoping someone else will do the thing they claim is legal. They have no interest in risking their necks - they'd just rather see someone else do it and find out what happens later. Pardon the cliché, but it's much easier to talk the talk than walk the walk. More often than not that's the modus operandi around here.

As you readily admit, the political appointees are anti-gun but the "grunts" may not be. All well and good and perhaps true, but you're neglecting one thing: the "grunts" don't dictate policy. The political appointees do. The way the MSP conducts their business changes depending on who is in charge over there. Former Governor Ehrlich, for example, made a point of boasting about his appointments to the Handgun Roster Board for a different interpretation of the law. Same goes for the Handgun Permit Review Board. Some people think the law should be read literally - something I am inclined to agree with. However, the fact is that it usually isn't. Courts interpret laws. Attorneys General interpret laws. Hence, the decision to allow AR-15 style .22 rifles transferred on 4473s thanks to an interpretation of "copies." Someone could have easily said that a copy meant cosmetically and/or functionally.

You want to change how the MSP, the legislature and their friends do things? Get involved. Show up during the annual gun day. Testify. Write letters. Attend meetings of pro-gun rights groups. Complaining about a lack of a piece of paper spelling out in clear terms what everyone in the industry knows is policy is a pointless exercise in futility.

OLM-Medic said:

Not to talk trash about them but I wanted to buy one of their HBARS and they said they sell all AR-15's as regulated because "its better safe than sorry." I like this store and they have great prices, it was a new AR-15 for like $700 and it was NOT a cheap brand. I can't remember which, but they usually run like $950...probably was a Bushmaster. Anyways, I'm going through the regulated bs if its not regulated.

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Try 2A in Jessup. Mark had a Wilson Combat HBAR in stock. We talked about the whole HBAR thing cause the Daniel Defense I wound up getting was regulated and the Wilson wasn't.

Long story short, I got my Daniel and the Wilson was still at the store as of last week.

Abacab said:

They are subjected to a different standard when in the course of their duties. Read the letter that accompanies a Handgun Permit and in particular its references to "brandishing." While the law may allow for open carry, the permit's administrative regulations make it clear that the MSP reserves the right to revoke a permit for anything it calls "brandishing." If you have a Handgun Permit and want to lose it quickly, try carrying openly. Really.

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Sooooo when they intended to actually restrict something, they actually wrote it down? Thanks for proving the point.

Abacab said:

There is being "right" and there's being "right but stupid." Sure, I could openly carry my HBAR AR-15, loaded, down the streets of Chevy Chase, Maryland. It's not illegal. Do I want to get arrested, have my gun taken away and then have to fight in court to get the bogus charges thrown out and get my gun back? Not particularly.

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Yeah, because there's a thousand other BS charges they could give you (e.g. disturbing the peace, etc). But, I see your point, and you're right, there is a threshold where it becomes a losing battle. I just disagree where that threshold is.

Abacab said:

No, I don't have any written "evidence" to substantiate what I already know. Is it codified in law? Depends on who is interpreting the law. I could easily make a case that an AR-15 lower receiver constitutes a regulated firearm if it's serialized. Whether or not I agree with it is a different matter. The fact remains that the Maryland State Police considers it regulated. No ifs, ands or buts about. People can pontificate on the forums all day long about how ridiculous it is, that's it's nowhere in the law so on and so forth. Just because someone (who is not in a position to dictate department policy) says it isn't regulated doesn't make it so. The ultimate governing authority in this matter is the MSP - they say it's regulated. Are you going to stand there and make a point by buying stripped lowers ad infinitum doing just 4473s then tell the MSP that's what you're doing? I doubt it - because you know what will happen.

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For as many times as you assert yourself, you still haven't answered the question. I don't even want hard evidence - can you at least recant approximately when you talked to MSP, or what about, etc? You just say "This is MSP's opinion," but based on what? Like I said, I don't need a PDF of a signed letter or anything, but can you at least just tell us about the experience that led you to this conviction?

Abacab said:

Telling people they can do something knowing full well that the people who matter say it's illegal is reckless and dangerous, in my opinion.

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Again, it seems reports are that MSP is divided on the issue, at best. You seem very strong in your conviction. What is this based on?

Abacab said:

People who scream BGOS are usually those standing on the sidelines hoping someone else will do the thing they claim is legal. They have no interest in risking their necks - they'd just rather see someone else do it and find out what happens later. Pardon the cliché, but it's much easier to talk the talk than walk the walk. More often than not that's the modus operandi around here.

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...So you didn't read the part about MSP Licensing Division replying to my email about regulated status with an inequivocal "no", and then admitting openly for the world to see to a FTF purchase of a Saiga 12? Or the part about having a HoCo Officer put my .45 back in my hands down at the station?

Abacab said:

Complaining about a lack of a piece of paper spelling out in clear terms what everyone in the industry knows is policy is a pointless exercise in futility.

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You obviously know something we don't. What is it??