FredCo School Usage Fees

FCPS is holding a meeting tonight to discuss the fee changes they intend to impose starting July 2015. They want to move toward an hourly-usage fee for the facilities, plus hourly charges for "staff". The documentation, below, is unclear on certain aspects. Do concurrent facility users each get to pay the $25/hr custodial fee, even if only one custodian is on-site?

Feels like a poorly thought out cash-grab. My bet is this will drive-off school users, which will result in even less revenue for the school ... so they will have to implement the next-stupider revenue plan next year.

Yes, I will be there tonight.

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. For example, on Sundays, there is Chinese school (that teaches Mandarin, SAT prep, and other subjects) in one of the FCPS middle schools that charges tuition of students and receives some support from the mainland Chinese government. I always assumed that they paid a fee for this use. I know that they've moved middle school locations in the past (and there were complaints about not cleaning up after use in one of the locations - not sure if this helped precipitate the move). I'm sure in general that they are good members of the community, but because they're bringing in monies to pay teachers and further develop their private school and essentially have a permanent reservation for Sunday use, I don't have a problem with them having to pay to use the facilities.

I'm reading through some of the "reference materials" provided by SchoolDude, whose software was (not surprisingly) recommended by the study committee.

From "Recovering Costs for the Community Use of Our Schools":

Recovering Funds (page 5)
With facility usage undeniably trending upward, and no signs of it slowing down, the new issue at hand is how to keep this rsing use from costing school systems more money they simply can't afford to donate to the community.

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Propaganda at its finest.

Schools are a public facilty that are paid by tax dollars. The only thing I can see is a reasonable cost for janitorial services that would not otherwise be used but must be due to the usage of non school realted activities.

Otherwise there should be no charge. They light and heat/cool the building whether someone is there or not.

For occasional use, I would agree, but not for a group that regularly reserves a weekend time slot of more than an hour (be it a Chinese school, Hebrew school, Islamic school, Humanist school, etc). A public facility paid for tax dollars, sure, but one with a defined scope. I can understand be taxed to support public education, but why am I paying for some group with a mission that has no public mandate and is collecting additional monies to allow students to use this public funded space.

fidelity said:

For occasional use, I would agree, but not for a group that regularly reserves a weekend time slot of more than an hour (be it a Chinese school, Hebrew school, Islamic school, Humanist school, etc). A public facility paid for tax dollars, sure, but one with a defined scope. I can understand be taxed to support public education, but why am I paying for some group with a mission that has no public mandate and is collecting additional monies to allow students to use this public funded space.

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So we let a space that is already paid for and not being used, go unused?

From those that are collecting money to rent out that public space, we collect monies back.

Why should I be helping provide space for <insert-cultural-organization-here> to use a facility every Sunday for 3-5 hrs to promote their own specialized mission for which they may be bringing in thousands of dollars a semester for?

Ironically, I'm not even sure that Cub scout packs can get access to elementary school gyms for 1-2 hrs once a month in Frederick County these days. I remember our pack having to take advantage of a sponsoring (and generous) church facility after losing access to a local elementary school gym (which we kept clean) for pack meetings.

My kids Cub Scout den needs at the local elementary school. They typical meet for 45 minutes 2 or 3 times a month.


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jpo183 said:

They light and heat/cool the building whether someone is there or not.

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Not at all true.

Climate control in these buildings is a big damned deal and they can monitor our utilities usage down to the hour.

If you walk into my building at 0600 as i usually do, the building is frigid this time of year. By about 0730 when first period is in full swing, it's getting almost bearable.

They pretty much shut the heating or cooling off when the kids aren't there.

Norton said:

Not at all true.

Climate control in these buildings is a big damned deal and they can monitor our utilities usage down to the hour.

If you walk into my building at 0600 as i usually do, the building is frigid this time of year. By about 0730 when first period is in full swing, it's getting almost bearable.

They pretty much shut the heating or cooling off when the kids aren't there.

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I can attest that what Norton says is true, but I have to deal with it in the reverse sense, because I am in the building after COB.

You think they leave the lights on when the building is unoccupied?

ericoak said:

You think they leave the lights on when the building is unoccupied?

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Well, yes. They just built a new state of the art elementary school where our neighborhood park used to be and when I walk at nite, 11PM, the place is lit up like the 4th of July, parking lot and all. Still not opposed to charging fees for groups to use it on a regular basis as there are extra expenses.

ericoak said:

You think they leave the lights on when the building is unoccupied?

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Our lights are all on occupancy timers. Nothing like being in a room doing desk work with no windows and having the timer shut the lights off because it thinks the room is unoccupied.

fidelity said:

Doesn't sound like a bad idea. For example, on Sundays, there is Chinese school (that teaches Mandarin, SAT prep, and other subjects) in one of the FCPS middle schools that charges tuition of students and receives some support from the mainland Chinese government. I always assumed that they paid a fee for this use. I know that they've moved middle school locations in the past (and there were complaints about not cleaning up after use in one of the locations - not sure if this helped precipitate the move). I'm sure in general that they are good members of the community, but because they're bringing in monies to pay teachers and further develop their private school and essentially have a permanent reservation for Sunday use, I don't have a problem with them having to pay to use the facilities.

Click to expand...

If the Maoist are paying from mainland, how much you want to bet this group is some type of commie spy network on the DL? That's how the Chinese Gov't operates. They flood the foreign country with mall kiosk workers who listen for every morsel as the US Govt workers shop.

MigraineMan said:

FCPS is holding a meeting tonight to discuss the fee changes they intend to impose starting July 2015. They want to move toward an hourly-usage fee for the facilities, plus hourly charges for "staff". The documentation, below, is unclear on certain aspects. Do concurrent facility users each get to pay the $25/hr custodial fee, even if only one custodian is on-site?

Feels like a poorly thought out cash-grab. My bet is this will drive-off school users, which will result in even less revenue for the school ... so they will have to implement the next-stupider revenue plan next year.

Yes, I will be there tonight.

Click to expand...

I think FCPS should charge the going rate for meeting rooms in the area. Else taxpayers are the fools. In fact, if the demand is there they might think about offering catering services via the Vo-Tech chef school. Why not teach the kids to manage events etc.

Post-meeting update:

The BoE meeting was pretty well attended. It followed the same basic format at the folks in Annapolis - you've got 3 miutes to take the podium and make a statement. There was a decent cross-section of the community there.

The documents published are unclear. Before the testimony started, the study consultant made a statement that helped. Youth-oriented community groups like Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts are "Group B" entities (which they call "Second Priority" groups in the docs,) and are charged a flat fee of $5 per day for each use area. For example, a Girl Scout meeting in the cafeteria would cost $5. If they needed the kitchen too, that would be an additional $5 for the second area. If the meeting occurs on a day where the school would normally be closed, then they pay the $25/hr custodial fee because someone has to be brought in.

Other groups like churches, private schools, HOAs, etc get charged the hourly rates based on which areas they use.

"Specials" that are exceptions to the rules are pools, synthetic turf fields, and stadium events with spectators. These have their own rates regardless of the group's classification due to either consumables or logistics issues.

Several groups noted that usage fees would have the largest negative impact on the lower-income areas.

The BoE stated that the upcoming changes were driven by complaints of inconsistent fees, and an incomprehensible or non-functional reservation system. In most cases, there is an individual at each school who maintains an "outside use" schedule in a notebook or on a whiteboard, and if that person is unavailable, no scheduling occurs.

Projected revenue from usage fees is about $600k. I'm not sure that I have any faith in that number, as the consultants seemed to base it on past usage history without accounting for attrition.

One of the Boy Scout reps identified at least five Eagle Scout projects that directly benefitted the local high schools to the amount of $10k+ ... each. She noted that if the Eagle Scouts weren't actively involved in the schools, it was unlikely that their future Eagle projects would involve FCPS facilities.

One of the last speakers noted that "nickel-and-dime fees are a great way to disenfranchise the volunteers you see in the room here tonight." He is correct.

One observation where this differed from Annapolis - at the conclusion, rather than scurry out a back door, the BoE members stepped down into the audience area and had numerous conversations with the attendees. Much better connection to their constituents. That was encouraging.

However, at the meeting immediately preceeding the testimony session, they were discussing the annual budget. It's about $524M for the County, and they expect a $30M shortfall. The next few weeks will involve difficult discussions about program cuts.

Norton said:

Our lights are all on occupancy timers. Nothing like being in a room doing desk work with no windows and having the timer shut the lights off because it thinks the room is unoccupied.

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Hahaha that is your cue to go home!

I am stuck on a military base now and all lights are on motion sensors.

rico903 said:

Well, yes. They just built a new state of the art elementary school where our neighborhood park used to be and when I walk at nite, 11PM, the place is lit up like the 4th of July, parking lot and all. Still not opposed to charging fees for groups to use it on a regular basis as there are extra expenses.

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For security and safety reasons, but I bet the interior rooms are dark.

rico903 said:

Well, yes. They just built a new state of the art elementary school where our neighborhood park used to be and when I walk at nite, 11PM, the place is lit up like the 4th of July, parking lot and all. Still not opposed to charging fees for groups to use it on a regular basis as there are extra expenses.

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Hall ways may be lit, but classrooms normally are not. If you school is lighting second floor classrooms, you have a moron for a security/facility manager. Most buildings have security lighting during dark hours, but don't run full illumination when not in use.

montoya32 said:

Hall ways may be lit, but classrooms normally are not. If you school is lighting second floor classrooms, you have a moron for a security/facility manager. Most buildings have security lighting during dark hours, but don't run full illumination when not in use.

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Well this one is lit up full tilt at 11PM and later. Can't believe the hallways are on the exterior walls and that class rooms are window less.