MOUNT SCOPE

Pinecone · May 2, 2013

I disagree.

And how you hold the rifle will depend on the stock and your body. And the most natural hold may be a slight cant.

As long as the reticle is vertical when you shoulder the gun, adjustments will work properly. It does NOT need to be square to the bore.

NRA-Benefactor · May 2, 2013

Pinecone said:
I disagree.

And how you hold the rifle will depend on the stock and your body. And the most natural hold may be a slight cant.

As long as the reticle is vertical when you shoulder the gun, adjustments will work properly. It does NOT need to be square to the bore.

If the scope is canted left or right of the bore (cross hairs level) and you dial in 53.6 MOA to hit dead on at 600 yds your bullet will be off left or right depending on how you had it canted.

This is why it is so important in long range shooting to be level and square.

Pinecone · May 3, 2013

NRA-Benefactor said:
If the scope is canted left or right of the bore (cross hairs level) and you dial in 53.6 MOA to hit dead on at 600 yds your bullet will be off left or right depending on how you had it canted.

This is why it is so important in long range shooting to be level and square.

Then how to offset scope mounts work?

The important thing is for the reticle to be level and square with the world. NOT the rifle.

NRA-Benefactor · May 3, 2013

Pinecone said:
Then how to offset scope mounts work?

The important thing is for the reticle to be level and square with the world. NOT the rifle.

Offset mounts are for QCB work not long range.

Go to the firing line of a 1000 yard or 600 yard match and let me know how many guys have cross hairs that are not level and square with the bore.

None of the snipers I shoot with at work have anything but level and square......

clandestine · May 3, 2013

Todd Hodnett teaches Snipers and says Crosshairs don't have to be perfectly level to the weapon, they have to be level to the world. He shoots .308 well past the normal accepted limitations for the round.

I have found this to be true as well, while all my equipment it mounted level it cant always be done by using the Adjustment Knobs or using feeler gauges on Scope Body Flats. Nightforce, Leupold, S&B, Zeiss, U.S. Optics, and Premier don't always have perfectly level crosshairs to scope flats.

If you buy good rings you don't lap them. Lapping is for cheap rings/mounts.

NRA-Benefactor · May 4, 2013

clandestine said:
Todd Hodnett teaches Snipers and says Crosshairs don't have to be perfectly level to the weapon, they have to be level to the world. He shoots .308 well past the normal accepted limitations for the round.

I have found this to be true as well, while all my equipment it mounted level it cant always be done by using the Adjustment Knobs or using feeler gauges on Scope Body Flats. Nightforce, Leupold, S&B, Zeiss, U.S. Optics, and Premier don't always have perfectly level crosshairs to scope flats.

If you buy good rings you don't lap them. Lapping is for cheap rings/mounts.

I have sent a few scopes back because the cross hairs are not level with the flats. They will fix or replace. Tech told me they shift sometimes when lock ring gets torqued. (Leupold Mark4)

I have never lapped Seekins or Badger rings.

Pinecone · May 4, 2013

clandestine said:
Todd Hodnett teaches Snipers and says Crosshairs don't have to be perfectly level to the weapon, they have to be level to the world. He shoots .308 well past the normal accepted limitations for the round.

I have found this to be true as well, while all my equipment it mounted level it cant always be done by using the Adjustment Knobs or using feeler gauges on Scope Body Flats. Nightforce, Leupold, S&B, Zeiss, U.S. Optics, and Premier don't always have perfectly level crosshairs to scope flats.

If you buy good rings you don't lap them. Lapping is for cheap rings/mounts.

EXACTLY.

A good thread about this over an Snipers Hide.

BigSteve57 · Jul 6, 2013

I looked for threads about scope mounting and this one seemed appropriate…

I have a very nice 22 rifle with a Leupold scope that was mounted by a gunsmith while I waited. The alignment is absolutely terrible. The cross hairs of the scope even seem off to the eye. In practice the shots tracked at about 30 degrees off vertical when I sighted it in. It’s nicely zeroed now but changing the elevation requires a windage adjustment even at 50 yards.

By contrast my service rifle with open sights produces excellent results over 15 MOA of elevation! I realize that perfect isn’t reasonable but I’d like this to track nicely with elevation and windage adjustments at least out to 100 yards.

So my question for gunsmiths and the accomplished scope mounters out there is what’s reasonable to expect from a professional scope mount/alignment?

Oh and here’s the rifle & scope:

dist1646 · Jul 6, 2013

BigSteve57 said:
I looked for threads about scope mounting and this one seemed appropriate…

I have a very nice 22 rifle with a Leupold scope that was mounted by a gunsmith while I waited. The alignment is absolutely terrible. The cross hairs of the scope even seem off to the eye. In practice the shots tracked at about 30 degrees off vertical when I sighted it in. It’s nicely zeroed now but changing the elevation requires a windage adjustment even at 50 yards.

By contrast my service rifle with open sights produces excellent results over 15 MOA of elevation! I realize that perfect isn’t reasonable but I’d like this to track nicely with elevation and windage adjustments at least out to 100 yards.
So my question for gunsmiths and the accomplished scope mounters out there is what’s reasonable to expect from a professional scope mount/alignment?

Oh and here’s the rifle & scope:

Talk to me about it next time you see me at the range and I'll help you.

Pinecone · Jul 6, 2013

It may be a problem with the scope itself.

With the level side to side, is the reticle perfectly vertical and horizontal?

If so, send to the scope top Leupold.

BigSteve57 · Jul 6, 2013

dist1646 said:
Talk to me about it next time you see me at the range and I'll help you.

Thanks! I believe you were there the day I first shot it. I remember being pretty PO'd because I wanted to show off the cool new rifle to my wife. Then we had the scope weirdness. She thought the scope acted weird too.

BigSteve57 · Jul 6, 2013

Pinecone said:
It may be a problem with the scope itself.

With the level side to side, is the reticle perfectly vertical and horizontal?

If so, send to the scope top Leupold.

It looks OK as far as that goes. But my eye may not be well enough trained.

Pinecone · Jul 6, 2013

If it looks pretty level and the reticle looks right, and it is tracking off by 30 degrees, the scope is bad.

Put it on a rest or bipod and sandbags, or just sandbags. Shoot a 3 shot group. Dial the scope up say 3 - 5 inches. Shoot another group, Repeat 5 times. Do this on a SINNGLE target. A strip of butcher paper with a single orange sticky dot near the bottom works well.

The groups should track upwards without drifting from side to side. If they drift to the side significantly, send the scope back.

If you put a vertical line through the dot and keep the reticle aligned on the line, the groups should all be up the line (or all the same distance to the side).

BigSteve57 · Jul 7, 2013

Pinecone said:
If it looks pretty level and the reticle looks right, and it is tracking off by 30 degrees, the scope is bad.

Put it on a rest or bipod and sandbags, or just sandbags. Shoot a 3 shot group. Dial the scope up say 3 - 5 inches. Shoot another group, Repeat 5 times. Do this on a SINNGLE target. A strip of butcher paper with a single orange sticky dot near the bottom works well.

The groups should track upwards without drifting from side to side. If they drift to the side significantly, send the scope back.

If you put a vertical line through the dot and keep the reticle aligned on the line, the groups should all be up the line (or all the same distance to the side).

Thanks this is really great info. I guess what I was wondering is if I should expect more from a professional scope mount. If the mount is substandard I want to take it back to the 'smith that mounted it and ask for a fix. What I don't want to do is complain and be seen as a D**K if the mount was within industry standards. I just don't know what's reasonable.

PS: I think the scope itself looks OK. But looking through the scope it *seems* like it's canted with respect to the barrel.

Pinecone · Jul 8, 2013

The problem is, is it canted to the rifle or it is canted to how you hold the rifle?

If the smith did a good job, the scope is level to the rifle. You can check this with feeler gauges between the base and the bottom of the scope, where it is flat under the turret area.

It is level to the rifle, you have two choices, one is to modify your hold to level the scope/rifle, or loosen the rings and level the scope to the way you hold.

I prefer to level the scope to my hold, as that is how I will hold the rifle without any contortions.

BigSteve57 · Jul 8, 2013

Pinecone said:
The problem is, is it canted to the rifle or it is canted to how you hold the rifle?

If the smith did a good job, the scope is level to the rifle. You can check this with feeler gauges between the base and the bottom of the scope, where it is flat under the turret area.

It is level to the rifle, you have two choices, one is to modify your hold to level the scope/rifle, or loosen the rings and level the scope to the way you hold.

I prefer to level the scope to my hold, as that is how I will hold the rifle without any contortions.

We were shooting from a rest and the rifle was "eyeball" level but I intend to go out and try it again incorporating your suggestions. This time I'll try and pay particular attention to the cant of the rifle.

As far as truing to the hold of an individual it might be hard since both me and my wife want to shoot it. Also, I'm not sure we're accomplished enough shooters to shoulder it *exactly* the same way every time. (I'm working on that

)

So just how does one level a rifle in general? :confused:

The rifle in the videos posted here had actions that allowed laying a level on the action and the scope. This little 22 is built differently with one side milled for extraction/ejection. There's nothing flat!!!

I literally tore my hair out trying to true up a scope on a Browning heavy barrel varmint gun. That action was flat like in the video however it seemed like every time I tightened the rings the scope would seat in to left, then to right. So I just figured gunsmiths knew the magic and had the judgment/skill I didn't and had a smith mount scopes to 2 other hunting rifles with good success.

Pinecone · Jul 9, 2013

My first thought about finding level is to remove the top of the rings and the scope, then level the top of the rings. A gun vice would be good to hold it level. Then reinstall the scope, leveling the reticle.

BigSteve57 · Jul 9, 2013

Pinecone said:
My first thought about finding level is to remove the top of the rings and the scope, then level the top of the rings. A gun vice would be good to hold it level. Then reinstall the scope, leveling the reticle.

Ah. That's a great idea. Seems so obvious now.

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