Possible: Massive LEO/FBI gun range in Frederick

They are withdrawling the application.

OLA is withdrawling the application?

DaemonAssassin said:

OLA is withdrawling the application?

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yes. No range.

Why did they pull it?

His statement essentially said to be a good neighbor. His dad bought the property to live on and the sons wanted to do the range. They said they have new plans that are more harmonious with the area.

Check, not Check Mate.
Whats worse than a shooting range?
FUDS. Let the neighbors hear shooting at O crap am in the morning.
They will wish they had the range.
Dumbass Nimbys. LOL

Anybody in the area want to do a mad minute at say 9am on a Saturday or a Sunday on their property?

Think that would make the people in the area want the range?

Had an interesting conversation with the father of a neighbor who lives close to there. He was against the gun range and did have some good logical reasons why. I disagreed, but as he pointed out... I don't live there.

I personally feel, that the owners got over-zealous and ambitious... that scared a lot of people. And of course, some idiots got emotional and won people to their side via the emotion.

Honestly believe (based on my conversation with the neighbor's father), had they introduced a smaller scale range... and gradually grew; they could have been successful.

I have already decided that if I win the lottery, I'm buying the old Lilly Ponds property and stirring the pot on that side of the mountain LOL..... now for my two dollars and a dream

Sewer Rat said:

Had an interesting conversation with the father of a neighbor who lives close to there. He was against the gun range and did have some good logical reasons why. I disagreed, but as he pointed out... I don't live there.

I personally feel, that the owners got over-zealous and ambitious... that scared a lot of people. And of course, some idiots got emotional and won people to their side via the emotion.

Honestly believe (based on my conversation with the neighbor's father), had they introduced a smaller scale range... and gradually grew; they could have been successful.

I have already decided that if I win the lottery, I'm buying the old Lilly Ponds property and stirring the pot on that side of the mountain LOL..... now for my two dollars and a dream

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Could you make the road in front of Lilly Ponds a drag strip please?
A legal one so we don't need spotters at the bridge.

Sewer Rat said:

Had an interesting conversation with the father of a neighbor who lives close to there. He was against the gun range and did have some good logical reasons why. I disagreed, but as he pointed out... I don't live there.

I personally feel, that the owners got over-zealous and ambitious... that scared a lot of people. And of course, some idiots got emotional and won people to their side via the emotion.

Honestly believe (based on my conversation with the neighbor's father), had they introduced a smaller scale range... and gradually grew; they could have been successful.

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The facility didn't meet the tests necessary for the Board of Appeals to grant the requested special exception for use in the RC Zone. Read the application and compare it to the existing zoning. The outdoor facility didn't meet the tests and the indoor facility was specifically NOT ALLOWED per the zoning regulations.

There are other gun ranges in Frederick County located in RC Zones. Those facilities existed prior to 1983 and were grandfathered. They did not have to meet the noise and other standards necessary for outdoor facilities built today.

All of the information is available on Frederick County's website. I can send you a PDF of Frederick's Zoning if you're interested in seeing the allowable uses in the RC Zone.

Sewer Rat said:

Had an interesting conversation with the father of a neighbor who lives close to there. He was against the gun range and did have some good logical reasons why. I disagreed, but as he pointed out... I don't live there.

I personally feel, that the owners got over-zealous and ambitious... that scared a lot of people. And of course, some idiots got emotional and won people to their side via the emotion.

Honestly believe (based on my conversation with the neighbor's father), had they introduced a smaller scale range... and gradually grew; they could have been successful.

I have already decided that if I win the lottery, I'm buying the old Lilly Ponds property and stirring the pot on that side of the mountain LOL..... now for my two dollars and a dream

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The only argument that should have been made but was not really (they did but it was light) was that the range would reduce home values in the area. They should have hammered this. It is real and it is real money. They only touched on this. Everyone else kept going on with the emotional side of things and the noise. They spent 4 minutes out of all the testimony given on the appraisal side. The appraiser they used did not come prepared with "evidence" but just "opinions". Had he showed real information this would have been done a while ago. The board even asked him questions and the answers were not IMO vetted.

I also agree with the over zealousness. If they would have left off the tower and just stuck with a simple range, the thing would have gone unnoticed and they could have expanded. The tower is what his the nerve IMO.

WayneE said:

The facility didn't meet the tests necessary for the Board of Appeals to grant the requested special exception for use in the RC Zone. Read the application and compare it to the existing zoning. The outdoor facility didn't meet the tests and the indoor facility was specifically NOT ALLOWED per the zoning regulations.

There are other gun ranges in Frederick County located in RC Zones. Those facilities existed prior to 1983 and were grandfathered. They did not have to meet the noise and other standards necessary for outdoor facilities built today.

All of the information is available on Frederick County's website. I can send you a PDF of Frederick's Zoning if you're interested in seeing the allowable uses in the RC Zone.

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I disagree, the range did meet the special exception. The argument that it is a "business" vs a club is one of the same. Clubs offer lessons, training, etc. If they would have changed the name to Old Line Gun Club they could have argued that way.

The argument of the indoor property for the RC side is a losing argument. Does that mean he cant build a "club house" for people to come in and sign in? All clubs have a club house.

The noise argument again is a losing argument because they would have had to comply with all noise ordinances whether state or county. If they didn't, they would get shut down / fined.

A special exception is there to allow certain things to be built but with added scrutiny from the neighborhood. The range DID meet the criteria however the one factor that it did not (decreasing of property values) was not argued hard enough.

In the end he did pull out. I think he is going back to the drawing board and we shall see what the new plans are.

My recommendation for the opposition next time. Stick to evidence and facts and not emotion. IMO if this went to the board for vote it would have passed. All the S.A. had to do was hammer property values over and over and over. They did not.

Instead they had people coming up that were rude, arrogant and the arguments were laughable. Stray bullets from the parking lot.... please..

jpo183 said:

I disagree, the range did meet the special exception. The argument that it is a "business" vs a club is one of the same. Clubs offer lessons, training, etc. If they would have changed the name to Old Line Gun Club they could have argued that way.

The argument of the indoor property for the RC side is a losing argument. Does that mean he cant build a "club house" for people to come in and sign in? All clubs have a club house.

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Customary structures are allowed. The indoor classroom and range was not a "club house" or customary structure associated with an outdoor range. Old Line Arsenal made that clear in their application.

The indoor facility was for instruction.

I can only suggest you read the zoning guidelines for RC; you will see that the proposed structure, per the Old Line Arsenal application, was specifically not allowed in the zone. No emotion, no misinformation. It's clearly spelled out.

jpo183 said:

The noise argument again is a losing argument because they would have had to comply with all noise ordinances whether state or county. If they didn't, they would get shut down / fined.

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That's not true. Noise and it's impact on neighboring properties is a factor in the Board of Appeal's criteria for consideration of the application for special exception.

When was the last time a range was constructed in Frederick County in an RC zone? Why was a proposed facility in northern Frederick County shot down recently?

jpo183 said:

Instead they had people coming up that were rude, arrogant and the arguments were laughable. Stray bullets from the parking lot.... please..

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Firearms scare people. Lots of people in one area with firearms scare people. You will get uninformed, emotional testimony in any case like this one. The Board should not consider that testimony in their decision, but those citizens have every right to have their voice heard.

I was at all three public hearings. I had an attorney present, a specialist in land use cases. The Board would have denied this application for special exception.

WayneE said:

Customary structures are allowed. The indoor classroom and range was not a "club house" or customary structure associated with an outdoor range. Old Line Arsenal made that clear in their application.

The indoor facility was for instruction.

So is a gun clubs indoor facilities. Have you ever been to the Izak Walton Club in Frederick? How about the one in Hagerstown with an indoor shooting area?

I can only suggest you read the zoning guidelines for RC; you will see that the proposed structure, per the Old Line Arsenal application, was specifically not allowed in the zone. No emotion, no misinformation. It's clearly spelled out.


I read it and the RC special exception. I see no problem, again difference of opinion.


That's not true. Noise and it's impact on neighboring properties is a factor in the Board of Appeal's criteria for consideration of the application for special exception.

Of course noise is a consideration, but the level of the noise is the consideration. IMO the noise level produced would not have been a major factor. I live about a mile from a range that does public trap on Thursdays. You can tell its gun fire, but nothing louder than my kids or a woodpecker.



When was the last time a range was constructed in Frederick County in an RC zone? Why was a proposed facility in northern Frederick County shot down recently?


I do not know and was not aware of one that was shot down. S.A. never drew any comparisons to this.

Firearms scare people. Lots of people in one area with firearms scare people. You will get uninformed, emotional testimony in any case like this one. The Board should not consider that testimony in their decision, but those citizens have every right to have their voice heard.

Thank you for admitting this. I agree they do have their right to be heard.

I was at all three public hearings. I had an attorney present, a specialist in land use cases. The Board would have denied this application for special exception.

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I dont think OLA would have started the planning if they did not think otherwise. I think the overall factor is the father was going to live there and he did not want to be ostracized.

Ft. Detrick

mancheechee said:

Btw, 100acre property across from Bennet Creek Horse Farm.

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Yea, area "B" same place they found all the gas and chemical rounds and containers!

jpo183 said:

I dont think OLA would have started the planning if they did not think otherwise.

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I disagree and I think the outcome favors my opinion, but you probably feel the same way. Either way, I don't think the facility could have been successful in this location.

I own property next to the applicant's property. I don't shoot here because of the horse farms next door. As a recreational shooter who travels more than 45 minutes to shoot on a regular basis, I'm not sure why more facilities aren't proposed or built in Industrial and Light Industrial zoning areas. IMO, attempting to build shooting/training facilities next to existing homes and equestrian businesses is inviting conflict.

WayneE said:

I own property next to the applicant's property. I don't shoot here because of the horse farms next door.

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Why not? Are you a reckless or careless shooter? Why would you NOT shoot on your own property (provided there is enough property of course).

Sewer Rat said:

Why not? Are you a reckless or careless shooter? Why would you NOT shoot on your own property (provided there is enough property of course).

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I have more than enough property to shoot legally in Frederick County.

You already stated you would buy property just to annoy other property owners, so I'm not sure if I could say anything that would help you understand why I don't shoot on my own property.

I don't know why I waited this long to get a suppressor, but it's on my short list.

Today's (Thursday Sept 4) WAPO reports "Frederick family withdraws plans for shooting range near Sugarloaf Mountain"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...b8ccc0-32fa-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02_story.html

WayneE said:

I have more than enough property to shoot legally in Frederick County.But you choose not to, I asked why

You already stated you would buy property just to annoy other property owners, so I'm not sure if I could say anything that would help you understand why I don't shoot on my own property.No, I stated I would buy property and stir the pot; choosing to shoot firearms on your own property should not be a neighbor issue. If one wishes to weed their backyard garden naked on their own property, that is their right

I don't know why I waited this long to get a suppressor, but it's on my short list.Just so that you do not offend your neighbor?? Perhaps you should avoid owning firearms altogether since it may offend your neighbor

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You sound like the perfect neighbor, not wanting to offend anybody no matter how much it inconveniences you.