C&R controlled round feed sporter?

chauncey · Oct 30, 2019

Deleted

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Oct 30, 2019

A well done 1903 sporter is a thing of beauty. Lots were sporterized...many well done and many not so well done. Just taking an '03 barreled action out of the GI stock and dropped into a shorter stock does not a sporterized rifle make.

I saw a well done '03 shorter at the York show over the weekend...it was well done and the price wasn't hateful (about $450 if I remember)...if I would have been interested in it I might have taken a more serious look at it...but I found more interesting things.

Doco Overboard · Oct 30, 2019

chauncey said:
I have been thinking of the same rifle requirements.

I assume you are looking for a military surplus rifle. I dont know squat about old school commercial rifles

Here's my OPINION:

1. You are limited to a large ring Mauser design. That means probably a sporterized 1903 or an M48, if you are lucky.

2. Enfields are not a controlled round feed design, IIRC

3. Because a 1917 is based on a Pattern 14 Enfield design, I don't think it is controlled round feed

4. The FR7 is a small ring Mauser designed for the 7.62 Cetme which had considerably lower pressures than 7.62 NATO or 308. PLEASE DO NOT shoot commercial 308 or 7.62 NATO in an FR7

5. The FR8 was designed for 7.62 NATO. I WOULD NOT use commercial 308 in a FR8 and I advise you don't do so either. This is subject to debate but that is My Opinion. (I would even be picky about using a lot of 7.62 NATO and be careful about where it came from, as in no IMI or Hirt)

6. There were Chilean Mausers on the market rechambered for "308". I dont know who rechambered them (arsenal or Century) but I would only buy one after careful research including determining whether they are large ring or small ring Mausers. See #7

7. There were a lot of Mauser pattern rifles sold to a lot of countries over the years. Many of the less expensive ones I see are South and Central American. Some are small ring, some are large ring, many have had a hard life, especially in the price range you want. Unless you know what you are getting, and have a safe way to determine the rifles serviceability, I would avoid this option

8. Other than the 1903A4 and FR8, I dont know of any Mauser pattern surplus rifle that used peep sights. So peep sights will be an added cost for you

Which brings me to...
I would recommend a new production rifle. I dont know your intended use, but by the time you find a sporterized large ring Mauser, swap the barrel to 308 or 30-06, and add peep sights, you are approaching a new Ruger Gunsite Scout rifle ($800?) which is based on the M77 controlled round feed design, comes equipped with peep sights, and will shoot accurately out of the box. The barrel is a slightly medium profile I think

For about $600 you can get the Mossberg version of the Scout rifle. It is not controlled round feed but some models do come equipped with peep sights. I think this is also advertised as a medium profile barrel.

For about $500 you can get the Ruger Ranch (?). Barrel is between a hunting weight barrel and a medium weight barrel, no controlled round feed, no peep sights (I think only maybe one model comes with irons).

For $300-400 you can get a Savage Axis, Ruger American, Remington (Model 7), TC, etc. All designed for the ammunition you intend to use and will not raise the ire of historical rifle collectors when you add on what you want to make the rifle do what you want it to do. All are push feed, no iron sights.

Depending on your intended use you use, you may want to consider a red dot or Low Power optic

If you have your heart set on a surplus rifle I would look for:
1. Swiss K11 or K31. Swiss 7.5 is ballistically similar to 308.
2. Finn M39. These shoot even steel case 7.62x54R ammo with amazing accuracy. Caliber is ballistically similar to 30-06
Both of these are notch sights. Please dont permanently modify a historic piece.

Good luck

Some of your recollections are incorrect regarding enfield pattern rifles whether they be of no 1 thru 4 pattern. The early lee’s may even predate the Mauser long claw design.
One of the primary differences between the coned breech rifles either being the 03 or m17 is that the rimmed cartridge rifles claws tension is relieved when the bolt is closed releasing tension on the rim. The claw is opened up on an inclined ramp and then closes as the bolt is opened.
Also, some Ruger rifles bolt faces are relieved on the underside creating a greater dwell time before the cartridge is actually fully controlled by the extractor.
Cartridge control on rifles one thru four (not the three which has a long claw)is controlled by a flat bolt face and the left receiver bolt through way which is tapered and with a diminishing radius wall. Which in turn also pre positions the cartridge rim to facilitate the ejection phase tilting the case mouth to the right just before the standing screw ejector in the left wall of the body. Both rifle types the 3 and 4 and 5 and Us m17 for that matter are equipped with peep sights on the folding ladder. Some of them that have been sported can be found with the V ground out of the pole to help during low light. 03a3s also have a rear peep as do the Arisaka which is also a control round feed rifle.
Key aspects to consider are the cartridge once broke over from the magazine while being pushed forward are the rim being captured by the claw while still being in the magazine and contacting the feed ramp at the same time.
Some South American Mauser contract rifles are considered the best candidates for sporterizing because of the quality of the rifle components. The Mexican comes to mind first because of trap door bottom metal shorter action length which saves weight with some even already being found in 3006. They are also small ring 98’s with the smaller barrel shank. M48’s are shorter still and rough as a cob making it harder to achieve maximum cartridge length in 06 because of the shorter magazine box dimensions. Not to mention some having warped actions from the heat treating process and bolt guide ribs that don’t interface well inside the rear receiver bridge. Reduced bolt tolerances are usually the norm that allows the cocking piece to contact or drag across the wood at the wrist or nose of the stock comb ruining your wicked oiled up sporter stocks looks doing the mad surplus Egyptian minute.

Melnic · Oct 30, 2019

I have taken my 1943 Smith Corona 1903a3 hunting before. I would say I lose about 15-20 minutes of hunt time because at dawn/dusk there is not enough light for my eyes to see well enough to shoot with the rear peep sight.
If I were in the woods with foliage, it would be worse.

I have yet to have it with me and see something to shoot. At least where I have hunted in MD, I'd say 80% of the deer were after sunset.

A proper scope without too much magnification will actually allow me to see MORE light than with the naked eye.

Jiberwocky · Oct 30, 2019

gizzard said:
ugly 303 enfield sporters can sometimes be had for 100-200 dollars, keep an eye for auctions. not what you asked for, but way under budget. spanish 308 conversions, israeli 308 mausers sometimes show, they bring good money unless the bores are crap.

Yeah, that's the story of my sporterized 1942 No.4 Mk1 (that it was sporterized hurts my soul) Got it for a touch under 200 a bit over a year ago, after cleaning most of the grime out of it, fitting a spare stock that doesn't wobble, slapping a no-mod scope mount on it, and getting a whole bunch of PPU .303 and some aluminum dummy rounds, it seems to be in perfectly good mechanical order (and looks surprisingly pretty), but then I realized I'm a full-time uni student so I haven't had a chance to shoot it and honestly kinda wish I'd saved the money. Are the Enfields even controlled feed? It looks pretty supported in there...

EDIT: in re what Chauncey said about the K31s, I love mine though it's never gone out. They're lasers, and 7.5x55 Swiss is super accurate (according to all those reloading sorcerers), uses a .308 bullet, and as Chauncey said, has similar ballistics to .308 Win. Factory GP11 surplus ammunition is also superbly accurate, people get good 1000yd shots with it. Not to mention, setting aside optics, the theory behind K31 irons is super clever.

@ OP: maybe another P17 (or P14 even?) with a heavily used barrel to get the starting price down low, then a re-barreling job? I've heard they take it well and you'd have a lot of options in the P17 including .308, and the P14s seem popular for the big ol' magnums. Good luck in any case!

rcreynolds · Oct 30, 2019

If it's sporterized it's not C&R any more.

chauncey · Oct 30, 2019

Deleted

Bootknife · Oct 30, 2019

Mauser M18 are on Sale Right Now ...I was looking at them Yesturday!

trickg · Oct 30, 2019

I recently bought a 1903 sporter from a fellow MDS'er. It was likely sportered in the early 1980s, so that takes it out of contention for being a C&R, but it is a BEAUTIFUL gun. I paid a fair bit for it and it wasn't cheap, but IMO it's worth every penny I paid. It was one of those deals where the deal came together between seller and buyer pretty well because it was something I wanted pretty badly, and might have paid a bit more for if that's what was asked, but he basically sold it to me for what he had into it because he knew I'd appreciate it. Out of everything I have, it might possibly be my favorite gun in the collection, with maybe the exception of the Mauser sporter that my Dad made that is probably older than me.

Threeband · Oct 30, 2019

Pattern 14s and 1917 Rifles are both modified Mausers. Both are controlled feed. They are not Lee rifles. Enfield Lock is a place, not a design, like "Springfield."

rcreynolds said:
If it's sporterized it's not C&R any more.

If it was sporterized 50 or more years ago, it's C&R eligible.

trickg · Oct 31, 2019

Threeband said:
Pattern 14s and 1917 Rifles are both modified Mausers. Both are controlled feed. They are not Lee rifles. Enfield Lock is a place, not a design, like "Springfield."

If it was sporterized 50 or more years ago, it's C&R eligible.

A question in my mind when this thread start up was, why does it need to be C&R eligible?

Threeband · Oct 31, 2019

Probably so he can buy or import it on his FFL.

Furious George · Oct 31, 2019

Threeband said:
There were a lot of nice sporters made on 03 actions back in the day. Many were fitted with Lyman aperture sights. Anything sporterized before 1970 would be C&R eligible.

Is this your interpretation of the regs or the ATF's?

I know about the 50 year thing but my understanding of the ATFE guidance was that if military rifles are not in the original configuration the are not C&R.

Has this changed?

Threeband · Oct 31, 2019

My understanding is that that is the ATF's rule.

It's based on a reconfiguration done more than 50 years ago, and not substantially changed since.

There are a lot of nice old sporters built on repurposed military actions.

lazarus · Nov 1, 2019

Threeband said:
My understanding is that that is the ATF's rule.

It's based on a reconfiguration done more than 50 years ago, and not substantially changed since.

There are a lot of nice old sporters built on repurposed military actions.

Yes. Or that’s the interpretation I’ve seen. If it has been sporterized within 50 years it is not C&R. If it was 50+ years ago it would be no different than having been manufactured prior to 1970.

Minor changes regardless of when they occurred are specifically called out as being fine by the ATF so long as the firearm can easily be returned to original condition. ATF has a list you can find be searching, but minor changes such as non-original sights or scope mount are fine. Addition of sling swivels. I THINK replacing the stock is okay if the original is retained/sold with. Cutting the barrel would absolutely not be okay unless done prior to 1970.

C&R controlled round feed sporter?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

chauncey

Member

TheOriginalMexicanBob

Ultimate Member

Doco Overboard

Ultimate Member

Melnic

Ultimate Member

Jiberwocky

Member

rcreynolds

Member

chauncey

Member

Bootknife

Ultimate Member

trickg

Guns 'n Drums

Threeband

The M1 Does My Talking

trickg

Guns 'n Drums

Threeband

The M1 Does My Talking

Furious George

Active Member

Threeband

The M1 Does My Talking

lazarus

Ultimate Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Latest posts

Forum statistics

Latest threads

Forum statistics

Share this page