Model 1883 Reichsrevolver

Abulg1972 · Dec 17, 2018

I realize that this isn’t a C or R gun but I’m hoping that someone can point me in the right direction. My friend inherited a Model 1883 Reichsrevolver made at Erfurt in 1883. Numbers match. Bluing is less than perfect. I can find next to nothing as far as info and value. I see a few completed auctions and some sales at Legacy Collectibles, but those are either rare examples or really nice examples.

easy · Dec 17, 2018

Definitely C&R, even antique. Looks pretty neat. Any caliber markings?

Abulg1972 · Dec 17, 2018

Made in 1883, it ain’t C or R.

somd_mustangs · Dec 17, 2018

10.6 mm I think. (10.5, 10.6, whatever it takes

)

Abulg1972 · Dec 17, 2018

somd_mustangs said:
10.6 mm I think. (10.5, 10.6, whatever it takes )

I hear it will shoot .44 Russian whatever that is.

capt14k · Dec 18, 2018

easy said:
Definitely C&R, even antique. Looks pretty neat. Any caliber markings?

No idea what he is talking about.

Curio a rare unusual or intriguing object.

Relic an item surviving from an earlier time.

Antique Firearm Made before 1898

C&R firearms are those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not replicas would be one qualifier.

That would make it a C&R Antique. Unless it is a replica.

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Biggfoot44 · Dec 18, 2018

Well , Capt14k is applying some common English language usage . Most of the time here we are referring to the Legal definition of that term. ( 1899 to rolling 50yr old , plus those guns/ variants specifically listed by ATF .)

The OP stated this gun was mfg br Erfurt in 1883 , hence legally an antique .

My curiosity piqued, I did some quick checking .

The M1883 was a variant of the M1879 . In addition to a slightly shorter bbl , several other minor differences . Informally designated by collectors as " Officer's Model" , period documents indicate it was initially designed for use by their Medical Corps .

The M1879 & M1883 were primary issue for German Empire from 1879- 1907 , but saw limited use up until the end of WWII . They were mfg by several mfg and consortiums thereof in addition to the gov't factory @ Erfurt . Most production was finished by 1889 , but small numbers by Erfurt until 1907, possibly 1908 . So an example of M1883 could be C&R , but most aren't .

A Big sucker , reported to be very robust and durable ( albeit slow to reload .

The 10.6x25 ctg was "inspired" by the .44Russian , to the point of having similar ballistics, and very close dimensions . ( Reportedly ammo can be made starting with .44 Russian brass .)

.44Russian was predicessor to .44Spl , with power levels a little below .45acp , but certainly a big bore ctg with good effectiveness, and moderate recoil in a gun of this size . Be interesting to see an period accounts from German sources of the relative performance of 10.6x25 and newfangled 9x19fmj in Trench Warfare during WWI .

Abulg1972 · Dec 18, 2018

capt14k said:
No idea what he is talking about.

Curio a rare unusual or intriguing object.

Relic an item surviving from an earlier time.

Antique Firearm Made before 1898

C&R firearms are those which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. Firearms manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not replicas would be one qualifier.

That would make it a C&R Antique. Unless it is a replica.

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Welcome to the forum, Kurt. Here, everyone understands that “C or R” is limited to non-antiques. So, do you have anything substantive to add to my thread or are you just here to bust my balls?

mawkie · Dec 18, 2018

My knowledge of Reichsrevolvers is that they have a fanatic following, are very uncommon here in the US and bring a nice dollar when they come up for sale. I'm not shocked that you're having to hunt for comps in the US. I see them come up to auction more in Europe and even then it's infrequent. Off the top of my head I can't remember ever seeing an English language reference work specific to them so published knowledge is scarce to non-existent.

Abulg1972 · Dec 18, 2018

mawkie said:
My knowledge of Reichsrevolvers is that they have a fanatic following, are very uncommon here in the US and bring a nice dollar when they come up for sale. I'm not shocked that you're having to hunt for comps in the US. I see them come up to auction more in Europe and even then it's infrequent. Off the top of my head I can't remember ever seeing an English language reference work specific to them so published knowledge is scarce to non-existent.

Thanks. I see that Jan Still’s forum has a discussion board for these. Hopefully I will get some info. A search on Gunbroker produced only 3 or 4 completed auctions, and they were of (apparently) rare or very well-preserved pieces.

Boom Boom · Dec 18, 2018

I've followed them for years. Most are in wallhanger condition and only usable for parts. Your buddy's example appears to be better than average. Is it functional? They rarely are. If it's all there and functional, I'll venture to guess it's worth at least $1K. Be careful when looking at comp sales. Most of those guns are non-functional and often non-repairable.

Abulg1972 · Dec 18, 2018

Boom Boom said:
I've followed them for years. Most are in wallhanger condition and only usable for parts. Your buddy's example appears to be better than average. Is it functional? They rarely are. If it's all there and functional, I'll venture to guess it's worth at least $1K. Be careful when looking at comp sales. Most of those guns are non-functional and often non-repairable.

I don’t know. I haven’t handled it yet. She just sent me pics and I was initially trying to figure out if it’s something worth researching.

capt14k · Dec 18, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
Welcome to the forum, Kurt. Here, everyone understands that “C or R” is limited to non-antiques. So, do you have anything substantive to add to my thread or are you just here to bust my balls?

Honestly I know nothing about them. Was just busting balls. However as you stated Jan's forum would be good also German Guns forum. Part of German Gun Collectors Association. There are a lot of guys from Germany on the forum.

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Boom Boom · Dec 18, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
I don’t know. I haven’t handled it yet. She just sent me pics and I was initially trying to figure out if it’s something worth researching.

Well worth the effort if the gun is intact and works. It appears to have the original grips. The lanyard ring is intact. Condition appears to be very good. The screws appear to be original and in excellent condition. All very good signs. Hopefully the bore is decent but not a big deal if not.

Abulg1972 · Dec 18, 2018

Boom Boom said:
Well worth the effort if the gun is intact and works. It appears to have the original grips. The lanyard ring is intact. Condition appears to be very good. The screws appear to be original and in excellent condition. All very good signs. Hopefully the bore is decent but not a big deal if not.

Is there anything I need to know in determining function? I know that I need to disassemble things to see if the interior parts match. Assuming that everything matches and works, do you really think it could bring $1,000?

Where do these tend to (or where should they) show up when people decide to sell them?

Boom Boom · Dec 18, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
Is there anything I need to know in determining function? I know that I need to disassemble things to see if the interior parts match. Assuming that everything matches and works, do you really think it could bring $1,000?

Where do these tend to (or where should they) show up when people decide to sell them?

As far as function, verify single action works. Some of them have double action as well. Cylinder looseness/shake is to be expected, as long as it's not extreme. Remove the cylinder rod and cylinder. Inspect the cylinder, inside the frame, and barrel bore for any serious issues. Some rust and pitting is to be expected. I *strongly* suggest not opening the action unless you have the right tools, including tapered gunsmithing screwdriver bits. Last thing you want to do is booger up pristine screwheads more than 125 years old. Damaging the screwheads drops the value by at least 30%. Do not remove the grips. They might be brittle and can crack in half.

If the action works, yes, it can easily sell for $1,000. I often see dealers selling wallhanger examples for $600, that are in rough shape, non-functional, and non-repairable. The one in your photos appears to be way, way nicer. Mostly, I've only seen collectors and antique gun dealers selling them.

Abulg1972 · Dec 18, 2018

So, basically, you're telling me to not take it apart. Wouldn't it maximize value to verify that the internals are matching to the rest of the gun, or do people not really care so much?

The only examples I found were at Legacy:

https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/scarce-erfurt-m1883-reichsrevolver-1894.html

https://www.legacy-collectibles.com/german-reichsrevolver-m1883-erfurt-rig-030618.html

And gunbroker:

https://www.gunbroker.com/All/searc...reichsrevolver&Timeframe=1&Sort=1&PageSize=48

Thank you for your help!

Boom Boom · Dec 18, 2018

Abulg1972 said:
So, basically, you're telling me to not take it apart. Wouldn't it maximize value to verify that the internals are matching to the rest of the gun, or do people not really care so much?

For an antique handgun in the value range we're talking about, collectors aren't worried about the internals. 99% of collectors will not risk opening the action for fear of causing damage. Antique revolvers can be very difficult to get back together if anything falls out or comes apart. You risk breaking fragile flat springs. Replacements generally don't exist and have to be custom fabricated. If anything in the action is non-original, it's one or more flat springs. They fail with age and it's common for adhoc replacements to be used. Replacements do not hurt the value if they restore proper functionality.

Abulg1972 · Jan 1, 2019

Happy New Year to all.

My friend dropped off the revolver. The finish is actually a lot better than was shown in the photos that she sent me, and the scuff mark on the cylinder isn’t nearly as bad as I thought. Every screw and every other externally-numbered part is matching. I don’t know how to rate the bore on these because I don’t know what’s typical, but it is pretty shiny and strong except for a ring of pitting about 1/3 of the way down on the top side of the bore. I’m going to clean off the grease and take good pics.

BeoBill · Jan 1, 2019

Not too bad for its age. I recall a mention in one of the C&Rsenal pistol episodes; can't recall which one.

Model 1883 Reichsrevolver

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