It’s possible it will just be so cold she’ll be mad at that, instead. We’ll see! If you see a non-Novotny lady, say hi.
AGC March Match Registrations NOW OPEN - Steel Challenge, 3 Gun and IDPA
- Thread starter MEGARMS
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast
Member Benefits:
No ad networks! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
It’s possible it will just be so cold she’ll be mad at that, instead. We’ll see! If you see a non-Novotny lady, say hi.
MEGARMS
KnowNothing
Just about the time we finish up it should hit 47 degrees
Awesome steel challenge match today, guys! Had a great time with the guys in squad 4, who were total pros when it came to being prepared and resetting stages fast. My rebuilt PCC also kept running like a champ, which is always nice.
A first rate day for us, too, on Squad 2, under the watchful care of Team K&A. Despite the expected jitters and wrassling with Madness Stage complexity, Mrs Occam has a great first time. Mentioned how nice everyone was, and a great atmosphere.
boss281
Ultimate Member
Great day for sure. We need to see that drone video!
MEGARMS
KnowNothing
(copy of email sent to shooters)
Thank you to all that joined us yesterday. A special thank you to those who help make it happen. There are too many to list individually, but I can tell you it takes 12 ROs (plus another 6 who are in training), 8 guys on the set up crew, a couple photographers, a drone, AGC EVP (who BTW was very impressed yesterday), and of course all of the participants who eagerly helped to keep things moving by resetting targets and tearing down the stages at the end.
For what it is worth, we ran 78 guns through 6 stages (2 of which were S.O.M) in just under 4 hours. It is hard to believe that prior to 10/2019 that we had never held, let alone participated in or for some of us even heard of a steel challenge match. This is progress that EVERYONE should be proud of. I want everyone to know how much we appreciate their participation and cooperation.
After every match, a group of us talk about what we learned, what we can improve upon next time, etc. I also always get a few emails with suggestions. Here are some notes from yesterdays conversations and emails.
1. Bottleneck on stage 5 - the squads were all evenly dispersed (6 x 13 guns each), yet there was a major bottleneck that started to occur and grew as the day progressed (on bay 5). I/we believe that this was due to resetting of the Texas Star which adds at least 30-45 seconds per shooter x 78 shooters= 45 minutes or so). We haven't settled on a fix yet, but it will either be eliminating that prop from the mix or better yet making it the first target to be shot so that resetting of it can be done while the shooter moves down range to finish the stage.
2. Equipment Divisions - as we attract more shooters from outside the area and we learn more about equipment divisions, it is starting to become evident that we have shooters competing in divisions where they are given a clear advantage/disadvantage. This is mainly because of our lack of understanding of the rules, as well as trying to keep things simple. We will work on this and hope to have to make some changes prior to registration opening next time, however this one may take a little more time than that.
It can get sticky when we start trying to discern what guns belong in which division and even more so when trying to enforce the divisions at the RO level. One of our shooters did make a very good point yesterday though. Somebody shooting a full on race gun with a comp and frame mounted optic should not be competing against a guy shooting an M&P with an optic mounted to his slide. That's like a Top Fuel dragster running down the track against stock car. We will work on this one and try to get it right.
3. Space - As the weather gets nicer and we grow in popularity, we fully expect that registration will fill up even quicker than it has been to this point. We have been wait listing and turning shooters away and it is the middle of winter. The goal is really to get as many shooters to participate as are willing/able to do so. We have already expanded to 6 stages and have no more room to do that further. I would like to keep each squad at 13 guns, as that seems to keep the flow moving (we could always increase this if we are able to get #1 above figured out)
Not sure what we will do at this point, if anything for the April match, That said, we will need to do something eventually in an effort to draw as many individual shooters as possible. Possible solutions are
1. Set up on Fridays and run a two day match - half the shooters on Saturday and half on Sunday. This is a long term solution because we would need enough demand as well as another 15 or so volunteers. We aren't even close to this one.
2. Limit all shooters to just 1 gun up until a few days before registration ends, only allowing 2nd guns to be registered at that time if space is available. This has the potential to be a logistical nightmare for the Event Director or whoever is managing Practiscore.
3. Eliminate the 50% discount on 2nd guns. This would allow those who really want to shoot twice to do it, but at the same time dissuade other shooters from registering two guns just because it is cheap to do so.
I know that #3 isn't going to be popular, but to be honest it is the direction we are leaning at this point. Believe me, I hate it myself when fees are used to control the masses. That said, something is going to have to be done and whatever it is it has to be simple to manage from the administrative end of things.
Thanks again to everyone for your support. Look forward to seeing you all next month (or at 3 Gun in two weeks. Still a few slots open)
Thank you to all that joined us yesterday. A special thank you to those who help make it happen. There are too many to list individually, but I can tell you it takes 12 ROs (plus another 6 who are in training), 8 guys on the set up crew, a couple photographers, a drone, AGC EVP (who BTW was very impressed yesterday), and of course all of the participants who eagerly helped to keep things moving by resetting targets and tearing down the stages at the end.
For what it is worth, we ran 78 guns through 6 stages (2 of which were S.O.M) in just under 4 hours. It is hard to believe that prior to 10/2019 that we had never held, let alone participated in or for some of us even heard of a steel challenge match. This is progress that EVERYONE should be proud of. I want everyone to know how much we appreciate their participation and cooperation.
After every match, a group of us talk about what we learned, what we can improve upon next time, etc. I also always get a few emails with suggestions. Here are some notes from yesterdays conversations and emails.
1. Bottleneck on stage 5 - the squads were all evenly dispersed (6 x 13 guns each), yet there was a major bottleneck that started to occur and grew as the day progressed (on bay 5). I/we believe that this was due to resetting of the Texas Star which adds at least 30-45 seconds per shooter x 78 shooters= 45 minutes or so). We haven't settled on a fix yet, but it will either be eliminating that prop from the mix or better yet making it the first target to be shot so that resetting of it can be done while the shooter moves down range to finish the stage.
2. Equipment Divisions - as we attract more shooters from outside the area and we learn more about equipment divisions, it is starting to become evident that we have shooters competing in divisions where they are given a clear advantage/disadvantage. This is mainly because of our lack of understanding of the rules, as well as trying to keep things simple. We will work on this and hope to have to make some changes prior to registration opening next time, however this one may take a little more time than that.
It can get sticky when we start trying to discern what guns belong in which division and even more so when trying to enforce the divisions at the RO level. One of our shooters did make a very good point yesterday though. Somebody shooting a full on race gun with a comp and frame mounted optic should not be competing against a guy shooting an M&P with an optic mounted to his slide. That's like a Top Fuel dragster running down the track against stock car. We will work on this one and try to get it right.
3. Space - As the weather gets nicer and we grow in popularity, we fully expect that registration will fill up even quicker than it has been to this point. We have been wait listing and turning shooters away and it is the middle of winter. The goal is really to get as many shooters to participate as are willing/able to do so. We have already expanded to 6 stages and have no more room to do that further. I would like to keep each squad at 13 guns, as that seems to keep the flow moving (we could always increase this if we are able to get #1 above figured out)
Not sure what we will do at this point, if anything for the April match, That said, we will need to do something eventually in an effort to draw as many individual shooters as possible. Possible solutions are
1. Set up on Fridays and run a two day match - half the shooters on Saturday and half on Sunday. This is a long term solution because we would need enough demand as well as another 15 or so volunteers. We aren't even close to this one.
2. Limit all shooters to just 1 gun up until a few days before registration ends, only allowing 2nd guns to be registered at that time if space is available. This has the potential to be a logistical nightmare for the Event Director or whoever is managing Practiscore.
3. Eliminate the 50% discount on 2nd guns. This would allow those who really want to shoot twice to do it, but at the same time dissuade other shooters from registering two guns just because it is cheap to do so.
I know that #3 isn't going to be popular, but to be honest it is the direction we are leaning at this point. Believe me, I hate it myself when fees are used to control the masses. That said, something is going to have to be done and whatever it is it has to be simple to manage from the administrative end of things.
Thanks again to everyone for your support. Look forward to seeing you all next month (or at 3 Gun in two weeks. Still a few slots open)
jjones88
Active Member
Yesterday was a great time. Squad 7 ran nice and smooth. Shame that the complaints are rolling in on the "competitiveness" and the "advantages". I understand why, we are all wanting to do our best, but the divisions are just going to get hard to manage I fear. It's not hard based on how you send out the scores to look and compare yourself to others and their gear. Getting to know the small community hasn't been hard so learning names and their gear takes a little effort but goes a long way.
The lack of "coaching" from the ROs is another sad loss for beginners and on something like Stage 5 yesterday might have helped. Lot of people on the squad before ours timed out that I saw before making it to the star, having someone just say "you're low" or "left" might have helped some just get through the stage.
Overall, I think this has been a huge success and is a ton of fun.
The lack of "coaching" from the ROs is another sad loss for beginners and on something like Stage 5 yesterday might have helped. Lot of people on the squad before ours timed out that I saw before making it to the star, having someone just say "you're low" or "left" might have helped some just get through the stage.
Overall, I think this has been a huge success and is a ton of fun.
MEGARMS
KnowNothing
Just to clarify, no one complained about the divisions. It was merely a suggestion from a very happy shooter. While I don't like complexity either, I think we need to evolve (slowly) as things like this arise. This is technically Competitive Shooting and I believe that we should do everything we can to keep the playing field level, especially for those who are consistently in the top 4 or 5 of their category.
As for the coaching, we just have to get away from that. It is ok for a shooter to ask, "Where I am shooting?" and then someone to respond by saying, "you are shooting low," but there is a fine line between that and giving real time stage instructions.
Competitions bring out competitors. Competitors want to win and there is nothing wrong with that. One day we hope to have lower key competitions, or just fun shoot days where we don't even keep score. Those are great for beginners and those that just want to practice.
I agree with like all the points Mike made. Texas Star setup cost could be dramatically reduced by letting people reset it mid-stage. I don't mind paying more as a non-member, but then again, I am probably gonna get an AGC badge by the end of the month. 
Now, topic of divisions... I was not the one who pointed out that he was running a stock CO gun against an Open division race gun, but I absolutely did notice that in the match. I get that people don't want complexity in divisions, but 1) it IS a competition and 2) trying to compete with dudes who have an SAO gun with frame-mounted sight, a giant comp, and a huge magwell isn't really fair to the folks who tossed an RMR on their CORE or MOS and called it a day. Better guns/gear won't save you from having no skill, but if two guys have equal skill and one of them is running WAY better guns/gear, the second one has a non-trivial advantage.
The BIGGER problem I saw with divisions was people not following mag cap rules. If you're shooting Production, you're starting with 11 in the gun, not whatever you can stuff into your ~140mm magazine. I really think some people were ignoring that, and it provided some serious advantages on some of the longer stages.
IMHO, long-term goal should be to sync up with sanctioned Steel Challenge divisions. I am perfectly happy to volunteer to write up literature and even answer questions from participants about what kinds of guns/gear are legal in what divisions. Just tag me in!
Now, topic of divisions... I was not the one who pointed out that he was running a stock CO gun against an Open division race gun, but I absolutely did notice that in the match. I get that people don't want complexity in divisions, but 1) it IS a competition and 2) trying to compete with dudes who have an SAO gun with frame-mounted sight, a giant comp, and a huge magwell isn't really fair to the folks who tossed an RMR on their CORE or MOS and called it a day. Better guns/gear won't save you from having no skill, but if two guys have equal skill and one of them is running WAY better guns/gear, the second one has a non-trivial advantage.
The BIGGER problem I saw with divisions was people not following mag cap rules. If you're shooting Production, you're starting with 11 in the gun, not whatever you can stuff into your ~140mm magazine. I really think some people were ignoring that, and it provided some serious advantages on some of the longer stages.
IMHO, long-term goal should be to sync up with sanctioned Steel Challenge divisions. I am perfectly happy to volunteer to write up literature and even answer questions from participants about what kinds of guns/gear are legal in what divisions. Just tag me in!
MEGARMS
KnowNothing
I agree with like all the points Mike made. Texas Star setup cost could be dramatically reduced by letting people reset it mid-stage. I don't mind paying more as a non-member, but then again, I am probably gonna get an AGC badge by the end of the month.
Now, topic of divisions... I was not the one who pointed out that he was running a stock CO gun against an Open division race gun, but I absolutely did notice that in the match. I get that people don't want complexity in divisions, but 1) it IS a competition and 2) trying to compete with dudes who have an SAO gun with frame-mounted sight, a giant comp, and a huge magwell isn't really fair to the folks who tossed an RMR on their CORE or MOS and called it a day. Better guns/gear won't save you from having no skill, but if two guys have equal skill and one of them is running WAY better guns/gear, the second one has a non-trivial advantage.
The BIGGER problem I saw with divisions was people not following mag cap rules. If you're shooting Production, you're starting with 11 in the gun, not whatever you can stuff into your ~140mm magazine. I really think some people were ignoring that, and it provided some serious advantages on some of the longer stages.
IMHO, long-term goal should be to sync up with sanctioned Steel Challenge divisions. I am perfectly happy to volunteer to write up literature and even answer questions from participants about what kinds of guns/gear are legal in what divisions. Just tag me in!
I would defiantly like to use you as a resource on this. The rule book is crazy with a kazillion different special conditions, etc.
As for the magazines, I’m not sure how to handle or enforce that one, because different divisions have different limits and it is tough to get all of our ROs on the same page. Not sure that magazine capacity makes all that much of a difference on the normal stages (at least for those in the top 5 of their class). Something to talk about for sure.
I'd need to do a little more research for the rimfire stuff, but I'm pretty up to date on regular USPSA divisions. Keep in mind, I'm not advocating super strict enforcement - if someone wants to run a WML on their pistol or they have some tiny carry magwell, I don't know that I think bumping them to Open is a good response to that. I just see better division usage as a stepping stone to sanctioned matches down the road and promoting fairer matches. We can keep the Stages of Madness and just run them as non-classifiers.
I think if you simply told people what the limits were, they'd respect them for the most part. There's also a little time between safety brief and the actual shooting at 9AM where ROs could do a fast division check to make sure everyone was in the right one. I concur that this is not a problem for normal stages if you don't have horrible accuracy, but the Stages of Madness do count towards final ranking in the match, so it is a real thing.
danb
dont be a dumbass
"If you're shooting Production, you're starting with 11 in the gun, not whatever you can stuff into your ~140mm magazine. "
- guilty as charged. I think I asked about this once and did not get a clear answer, so I did the same as everyone else and stuffed them to the brim.
It may be tough to get everyone on the same page, at the same time at some point we want IDPA and these matches to be sanctioned so it does not do anyone any good to be ignoring the rules.
As for how to handle it, I would not expect ROs to inspect mags, but its pretty clear how many shots were taken before a reload during the course of fire and DQ or penalize someone. Also, the ROs know about how many total shots and how often shooters should be reloading.
I would argue it 100% makes a difference. Reloading on the go is a skill, some people fumble the reload, or dont plan them out. Regardless of how many are in the mag, best time to reload is moving between stages (IMO). If one person is following the rules, with a 10 round mag, and doing tactical reloads, they have a distinct disadvantage against me and my 18 round mag (i can also do them, not as well, but I only do 1/2 as many).
- guilty as charged. I think I asked about this once and did not get a clear answer, so I did the same as everyone else and stuffed them to the brim.
It may be tough to get everyone on the same page, at the same time at some point we want IDPA and these matches to be sanctioned so it does not do anyone any good to be ignoring the rules.
As for how to handle it, I would not expect ROs to inspect mags, but its pretty clear how many shots were taken before a reload during the course of fire and DQ or penalize someone. Also, the ROs know about how many total shots and how often shooters should be reloading.
I would argue it 100% makes a difference. Reloading on the go is a skill, some people fumble the reload, or dont plan them out. Regardless of how many are in the mag, best time to reload is moving between stages (IMO). If one person is following the rules, with a 10 round mag, and doing tactical reloads, they have a distinct disadvantage against me and my 18 round mag (i can also do them, not as well, but I only do 1/2 as many).
If it became sanctioned, yes, they would need to start adhering to the real set of steel challenge stages, and you would need to comply with division rules.
They could still run the stages of madness, but they wouldn't count towards any SC classifiers. I don't know the official club affiliation rules well enough to state whether they'd be allowed to include those stages in overall match scores, or if they'd have to be partitioned into a side match of some sort... guessing the latter.
The real solution, of course, is to start running USPSA matches and let SC be SC.
For my penny of opinion: I would prefer to run around on wild stages shooting different types of targets and firing lots of shots. Compared to standing in a box shooting 5 targets but being able to accurately judge my times against others. I may be in the minority but I go primarily for fun, think rec league kid sports. If the trade off for having cool stages and in my opinion a relaxed (but safe) environment is not being able to judge my times against only guys with the exact equipment as me I'm fine with that trade. Maybe that could be that way the weekend shoots are divided it we end up having the support to do Sat/Sun shoots.
boss281
Ultimate Member
I think it all depends on what the long range goals and their timelines might be. A project, right? Given these are unsanctioned matches the tendency is to be more relaxed around the official SCSA rules. There are a lot of moving parts: getting the RO teams on the same page, setting up stages to "spec", inspecting firearms for adherence to division guidelines...it's a lot of work but not insurmountable. Yesterday I ran my braced Scorpion pistol as a PCC because, well, I could. Otherwise I'd have brought the carbine.
When I saw my score, I admit I was disappointed...for about 2 minutes. But it was all in fun and I enjoyed learning the RO procedures AND competing--I was in heaven (by the way, I was impressed that everyone, especially those first timers, had excellent trigger finger management and control of the muzzle. I didn't see one infraction in squad 3 at all. Kudos to the team).
So, if the goal is moving towards official sanctioned matches, the leadership needs to sit down, develop a set of goals, develop a plan for meeting those goals, and start implementing it with plenty of transparency to keep interested parties apprised of progress. I have no problem getting together with the ROs once a month or even twice a month, especially if there is BBQ and booze. Or just the BBQ.
If the goal is to just have fun, announcing that too is just as important. As long as safety expectations can be met, then having a great time regardless of the hardware shouldn't be an issue.
In summary, if you feel there is a specific goal in mind, form a team, develop a plan and timeline, find the volunteers to help, keep everyone posted on progress and challenges as they surface, and get 'er done.
Just my two cents. I got a lot more but I hate getting on a soapbox.
Squaregrouper
Kragaphile
I have been predicting #2 since AGC's Steel Challenge started. A few weeks ago, I counted 18 shooters registered in two categories and the match was filled in <48hrs. That is 18 new shooters/possible new range badges that couldn't participate. We all KNOW what will happen during nice weather.
I shoot 2 guns and would be perfectly fine with #3 as well.
Megarms- I am happy to help out with logistics and Practiscore for Steel Challenges. Caveat, as you know, I can rarely be on-site for Sunday matches.
