Form 4 Question

In my experience, when you get two or more NFA owners in a room its not long before hypothetical scenarios start getting bounced around. So here is one just to see what what people here think.

Lets say you purchase an Class 3 firearm with cash. You fill out your paperwork, collect your receipt and head out. You get a call that your MSP came back clear and you can pick up your Form 4's. You head out with Form 4's in hand but before you can file them, you get word the dealer is supposedly selling the same firearm to multiple people. You head back to verify this isn't the case with your firearm and the dealer asks for your receipt. You didn't bring it in your panic to get to the shop. You go home, but can't find it. The dealer is acting like he doesn't know you.

Now, keep in mind this hypothetical situation isn't about "physical possession". It about "proof-of-ownership."

If the Form 4's have your name and address, the shops name and address, the make, model, serial #, and all info pertaining to the firearm you purchased, and the Form 4's are signed and dated by the dealer, does the Form 4 constitute "ownership"?

I'm curious to know what the community thinks?

The Form 4 is for possession as compared to ownership. I own a suppressor right now but cannot possess said suppressor until the Form 4 is approved. I purchased the suppressor and it is now in the possession of my SOT until approval comes back.

There is no more CLEO sign off for NFA so no more MSP approval. All they do is notify CLEO but no more CLEO approval.

True. You cannot "possess" since the transfer hasn't taken place since the paperwork isn't filed. Again, "hypothetically". But, a dealer wouldn't give you Form 4's all filled out ready to submit, if you didn't already pay for the firearm. Correct?

Correct, they shouldn't unless they're giving it to you. There's only one serial number which is associated with the Form 4. You purchased that serialized item when you paid for it. Your payment is for the ownership, the Form 4 is the transfer. In theory, you could buy a suppressor, submit your Form 4, be denied for some reason or decide to not go through with the transfer due to the cost, and then sell that suppressor to someone else to be transferred by the same dealer.

Unless maybe they were selling from their inventory and had some sales arrangement where you didn't pay in full until pickup after cleared Form 4. But in that case the Form 4 and serial number would still be associated with you and I think the dealer would get seriously jammed up, as in lose their FFL, if they had multiple people submitting Form 4s to the ATF for the same item with the same serial number.

You did get a receipt with a s/n in said hypothetical transaction, didn't you? Doesn't matter if you paid cash except being able contest the charge with a cc. But by that time the FFL would have likely been shut down.
I once had a dealer try to deliver one with the wrong S/N. It was an honest mistake though, he just grabbed the wrong one off the stack. I always check the S/N with the F4 at the time I take possession.

benton0311 said:

Correct, they shouldn't unless they're giving it to you. There's only one serial number which is associated with the Form 4. You purchased that serialized item when you paid for it. Your payment is for the ownership, the Form 4 is the transfer. In theory, you could buy a suppressor, submit your Form 4, be denied for some reason or decide to not go through with the transfer due to the cost, and then sell that suppressor to someone else to be transferred by the same dealer.

Unless maybe they were selling from their inventory and had some sales arrangement where you didn't pay in full until pickup after cleared Form 4. But in that case the Form 4 and serial number would still be associated with you and I think the dealer would get seriously jammed up, as in lose their FFL, if they had multiple people submitting Form 4s to the ATF for the same item with the same serial number.

Click to expand...

sundazes said:

You did get a receipt with a s/n in said hypothetical transaction, didn't you? Doesn't matter if you paid cash except being able contest the charge with a cc. But by that time the FFL would have likely been shut down.
I once had a dealer try to deliver one with the wrong S/N. It was an honest mistake though, he just grabbed the wrong one off the stack. I always check the S/N with the F4 at the time I take possession.

Click to expand...

Benton 0311. Interesting. We never thought about the "gifting" route. In that case, I agree.

Sundazes. We never brought a serialized receipt into the hypo. We tried to stay within the hypothesis as described earlier. The idea being, if you paid cash and lost the receipt, would the non-submitted Form 4 with all the info on it and dealers signature constitute legal proof that the firearm was indeed purchased by the first buyer? And if the firearm was then sold to another buyer, would the earlier date on the first buyers Form 4 be proof they are the first and rightful owner?

MDEXPAT said:

Benton 0311. Interesting. We never thought about the "gifting" route. In that case, I agree.

Sundazes. We never brought a serialized receipt into the hypo. We tried to stay within the hypothesis as described earlier. The idea being, if you paid cash and lost the receipt, would the non-submitted Form 4 with all the info on it and dealers signature constitute legal proof that the firearm was indeed purchased by the first buyer? And if the firearm was then sold to another buyer, would the earlier date on the first buyers Form 4 be proof they are the first and rightful owner?

Click to expand...

Interesting. I would think the completed and signed F4 would show intent to sell and transfer but would not prove that a sale went through.

Things are a little different now in that there is no longer a CLEO signoff thus no MSP paperwork, which would now renders the original question moot for recent or future purchases. Now you take your fingerprint cards in and sign your Form 4 at the dealer and it goes straight to the ATF. Therefore, the original question of a dealer reselling an already sold item before the Form 4 is back from MSP no longer applies.

True. Things have changed, a lot! When this hypothesis first came up it was during a time when a rumor was going around concerning single firearms being sold to multiple buyers. How would a buyer know they're the original buyer?

That being the case, lets work this on the grounds that nothing has changed in the process since then. "Back in the day," you would buy, fill out the 4473, send that to State, wait for it to come back, then pick up your Form 4's already filled out and signed by the dealer.

If after that last point you didn't get your Form 4 in before the firearm was supposedly sold out from under you to someone else and they put their Form 4 in before you did, would the earlier date on your Form 4 constitute proof that you purchased the firearm first and therefore have legal claim to it?

Either way this runs out... the dealer has possession. Even an approved form 4 does not confirm payment. It also doesn't prove possession transfer has happened.

I had a form 4 approved from my dealer (Christian Soldier) to me. I cancelled it and had him send it (after 3 years) to a friend's dealer in VA. He did try and suggest he could keep it. However I could have easily proved I paid for it. It did work out but that crook stole $100 from me on my Transfer refund. I should have known anyone who had to put Christian in the title of his gun store would be a thief and scum bag.

Anyway, any of this is going to court as MGs are worth to much to just let go. Do you have a record of withdrawing that money from a bank? Or did you just pull it out of safe box at home? It all starts to come into play. Its property, nothing more. The Form 4 is just tax info. So just think about it as any other purchase you pay for before delivery and its going to work a lot like that. Anyone can fill out a Form 4 and sign a name. I doubt he is going to try and steal it and then agree its his signature on the form 4.

IMBLITVT. True. Dealer still has "possession".

But, the hypothesis we're running is whether a Form 4 filled out and signed by the dealer and in your hands, constitutes legal ownership? In other words, if you own more than one vehicle you only "possess" the one you are in. If a friend or family member has the other vehicle, they might "possess" it, but you bought and paid for that vehicle so you "own" it.

We're not trying to get around the Form 4 submission process. What we're working on is whether the dealers signed and dated Form 4 w/ your guns info on it - including serial # - proves legal ownership? Still have to wait to take possession. But while waiting, does the Form 4 prove you own it in the event the dealer then sold it to someone else who managed to get their forms in faster? Would the earlier date on your form, prove you had it first?