Dispelling the myths of shooting under stress

IDFInfantry · Jan 16, 2019

Sharing is caring!

[YT]It9Rhw8UAOk[/YT]

outrider58 · Jan 17, 2019

Let me start by saying I have no training or experience in self defensive shooting. I believe he is correct though.

Being a lifelong deer hunter and very experienced in shooting critters under "stress" (a completely different kind of stress to be sure), it's all about your training. Once your techniques become muscle memory, you WILL react appropriately, it will not require thought. It will become second nature (I don't like the term "instinctual"). "Train like you fight, fight like you train" someone once said.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 17, 2019

He is correct. When I was a federal officer I taught handgun, shotgun and submachine gun as well as tactics. Effective training is key...and repeating that training regularly...daytime, nighttime, different weather (rarely done)...and one thing that is really rarely done...train as you fight! If you're a uniformed officer you train and practice in the same way you work...in uniform with all ten-twelve pounds or so of gear around your waist. If you hit the ground hard for any reason...all that gear can hurt when you land so you should be ready for it. Training in jeans doesn't cut it if you don'y work in jeans. The same goes for investigators...if you work in a suit you should train in a suit.

Studies have shown that under stress one reverts to training. If you lolly-gag and horse around and generally be unserious during training...you won't perform properly under stress.

pbharvey · Jan 17, 2019

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
He is correct. When I was a federal officer I taught handgun, shotgun and submachine gun as well as tactics. Effective training is key...and repeating that training regularly...daytime, nighttime, different weather (rarely done)...and one thing that is really rarely done...train as you fight! If you're a uniformed officer you train and practice in the same way you work...in uniform with all ten-twelve pounds or so of gear around your waist. If you hit the ground hard for any reason...all that gear can hurt when you land so you should be ready for it. Training in jeans doesn't cut it if you don'y work in jeans. The same goes for investigators...if you work in a suit you should train in a suit.

Studies have shown that under stress one reverts to training. If you lolly-gag and horse around and generally be unserious during training...you won't perform properly under stress.

I’ve never understood why some LEO firearms training doesn’t involve running 50-100 yards and then trying to shoot a target while you’re huffing and puffing.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 17, 2019

pbharvey said:
I’ve never understood why some LEO firearms training doesn’t involve running 50-100 yards and then trying to shoot a target while you’re huffing and puffing.

A lot of cops simply believe since a bullet is faster than they can run that running is not necessary. The same goes for having a radio.

Lack of investment in training time and funds has a huge part of it as well...probably the most important reason. One agency I worked at wanted the instructor staff to take the officers to the range...qualify them and get them back.

Alan3413 · Jan 17, 2019

You don't rise to the occasion, you fall back on your training.

Name Taken · Jan 18, 2019

I don't think he's wrong.

daNattyFatty · Jan 18, 2019

pbharvey said:
I’ve never understood why some LEO firearms training doesn’t involve running 50-100 yards and then trying to shoot a target while you’re huffing and puffing.

If it’s part of qualification, then I’m sure many wouldn’t pass.

If it’s just training, I’m sure there’d be a slew of NDs and injuries.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

smokey · Jan 18, 2019

I agree with just about everything, except I dont think his view on red dots is sophisticated enough. Shooting with a red dot is a different skill than shooting with open sights.

One of the biggest benefits of a red dot is specifically that it allows you to be threat-focused rather than sight-focused. By that, I mean your eyes are physically focused at the plane the threat us on. You then superimpose the dot on that threat and bang.

Open sights require you to manage three focal planes...the threat, front sight, and rear sight. You then put most of your attention on the front sight. They are too different to allow for valid skill transfer and should be considered two different shooting skills.

If your rifle only has a red dot, learn that first(although if you also shoot handguns, some of that sight-picture stuff can transfer enough to at least be useful if you must use opens). If it only has irons, learn them. If you're running redundant sighting with a red dot and also irons, you've got to spend time mastering both means of sighting so that you can use either skill.

TheOriginalMexicanBob · Jan 18, 2019

Alan3413 said:
You don't rise to the occasion, you fall back on your training.

I like that. I'm gonna use it if you don't mind. Of course...I will say I came up with it! :lol:

Sampson · Jan 18, 2019

outrider58 said:
Let me start by saying I have no training or experience in self defensive shooting. I believe he is correct though.

Being a lifelong deer hunter and very experienced in shooting critters under "stress" (a completely different kind of stress to be sure), it's all about your training. Once your techniques become muscle memory, you WILL react appropriately, it will not require thought. It will become second nature (I don't like the term "instinctual"). "Train like you fight, fight like you train" someone once said.

I'm with you on this. When shooting deer, muscle memory has always racked my followup round for a shot if needed. Very seldom have I ever heard the shots, but have stayed focused on the task at hand.

Combloc · Jan 18, 2019

I've only held a firearm on a man one time so I have precious little experience. I can tell you though, I was 100% focused and hyper aware of everything that was happening. It's a feeling I do not relish having again.

Pinecone · Jan 18, 2019

smokey0118 said:
I agree with just about everything, except I dont think his view on red dots is sophisticated enough. Shooting with a red dot is a different skill than shooting with open sights.

One of the biggest benefits of a red dot is specifically that it allows you to be threat-focused rather than sight-focused. By that, I mean your eyes are physically focused at the plane the threat us on. You then superimpose the dot on that threat and bang.

Open sights require you to manage three focal planes...the threat, front sight, and rear sight. You then put most of your attention on the front sight. They are too different to allow for valid skill transfer and should be considered two different shooting skills.

If your rifle only has a red dot, learn that first(although if you also shoot handguns, some of that sight-picture stuff can transfer enough to at least be useful if you must use opens). If it only has irons, learn them. If you're running redundant sighting with a red dot and also irons, you've got to spend time mastering both means of sighting so that you can use either skill.

He didn't say that red dots were not good.

He said that it is best to learn the fundamentals with iron sights. THEN go to a red dot.

And if you battery dies, it is nice to know how to REALLY use the irons.

outrider58 · Jan 19, 2019

Combloc said:
I've only held a firearm on a man one time so I have precious little experience. I can tell you though, I was 100% focused and hyper aware of everything that was happening. It's a feeling I do not relish having again.

It's amazing how your brain reacts to imminent mortal danger. It has never failed(me).

smokey · Jan 19, 2019

Pinecone said:
He didn't say that red dots were not good.

He said that it is best to learn the fundamentals with iron sights. THEN go to a red dot.

And if you battery dies, it is nice to know how to REALLY use the irons.

Yup, that's where I dont fully agree. As two separate skill sets, prioritize the one that is most useful to you. If you plan on running a red dot and have limited experience, learn on the red dot first. Military guys advocating prioritizing irons makes sense, as any gun they will come in to contact with will have irons, but may have a red dot.

Its ultimately best to learn them both, but I dont see anything wrong with a new shooter first learning on a red dot, provided that's what the shooter will use.

Mark75H · Jan 19, 2019

pbharvey said:
I’ve never understood why some LEO firearms training doesn’t involve running 50-100 yards and then trying to shoot a target while you’re huffing and puffing.

CMCT does do this as an exercise in their Carbine 1 class. I would guess that the same instructors are doing the same thing but more when they train LEO, but they are probably the exception to the rule. Running up and down the hill after being isolated in the dark room was tough on this old guy and I'm not an office desk seated kind of guy.

Pinecone · Jan 19, 2019

smokey0118 said:
Yup, that's where I dont fully agree. As two separate skill sets, prioritize the one that is most useful to you. If you plan on running a red dot and have limited experience, learn on the red dot first. Military guys advocating prioritizing irons makes sense, as any gun they will come in to contact with will have irons, but may have a red dot.

Its ultimately best to learn them both, but I dont see anything wrong with a new shooter first learning on a red dot, provided that's what the shooter will use.

Starting with the red dot, you can build some bad habits.

With irons, you need to get things right.

And I see little issue, once you learn irons, to change to a red dot.

Same argument with scopes.

Dispelling the myths of shooting under stress

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Banned

Eats Bacon Raw

Ultimate Member

Habitual Testifier

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

2A TEACHER

Ultimate Member

Ultimate Member

Stop Negassing me!!!!!

Ultimate Member

Eats Bacon Raw

2A TEACHER

MD Wear&Carry Instructor

Ultimate Member

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics