How important is brass?
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I'd say pretty important. Otherwise you just have powder and a bullet flopping around in your magazine
No wonder my reloads suck!
kalister1
R.I.P.
Nobody used BRASS for the first COUPLE of years of firearms.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Everything I have heard about AR shooting is that brass is not a huge deal. Lapua brass tends to be more consistent than others, but that does not seem to mean much in .223, versus .308, which it makes a bigger difference.
You can go nuts on this. There are guys over on SH that weigh their charges to 0.001 grains. REALLY??
I remember the story of Tubbs. He loaded up some ammo for a match, making every effort to control every variable. He went to the match and won. When he got home, he found his perfectly loaded match ammo sitting on the bench, he had shot the match with the match rejects.
You can go nuts on this. There are guys over on SH that weigh their charges to 0.001 grains. REALLY??
I remember the story of Tubbs. He loaded up some ammo for a match, making every effort to control every variable. He went to the match and won. When he got home, he found his perfectly loaded match ammo sitting on the bench, he had shot the match with the match rejects.
dist1646
Ultimate Member
Everything I have heard about AR shooting is that brass is not a huge deal. Lapua brass tends to be more consistent than others, but that does not seem to mean much in .223, versus .308, which it makes a bigger difference.
You can go nuts on this. There are guys over on SH that weigh their charges to 0.001 grains. REALLY??
I remember the story of Tubbs. He loaded up some ammo for a match, making every effort to control every variable. He went to the match and won. When he got home, he found his perfectly loaded match ammo sitting on the bench, he had shot the match with the match rejects.
I heard that story. The archer, not the arrow.
In using a Dillion progressive press check the variance in weight of the power at the Bullet setting station. The press throws charges good enough for pistols loads and rifle hunting loads but not for precision rifle shooting. Also OAL will vary, you have to have consistent Ogive to land distance, again Dillon doesn’t do this. Use a single stage press for consistent Ogive to land distance and weight each charged. Read The reloading books by Glen Zidiker,
More info than you knew you needed.
Also LC brass is usually shot in full auto guns with very loose chambers, so that brass is really stretched, I use it for plinking or functional testing not for matches. You can find new LC brass aka federal brass new like at Cabela’s. But these cases have less internal volume so check your hot loads carefully. Take new LC brass and fill it to the top with your favorite rifle powder than pour that powder into a new LAPUA piece of brass, see how much lower level the powder reaches in the Lapua case. Or use resized LC to resized LAPUA brass.
More info than you knew you needed.
Also LC brass is usually shot in full auto guns with very loose chambers, so that brass is really stretched, I use it for plinking or functional testing not for matches. You can find new LC brass aka federal brass new like at Cabela’s. But these cases have less internal volume so check your hot loads carefully. Take new LC brass and fill it to the top with your favorite rifle powder than pour that powder into a new LAPUA piece of brass, see how much lower level the powder reaches in the Lapua case. Or use resized LC to resized LAPUA brass.
I'll check out the books. I'm not ready for precision loads yet. My next rifle will probably push me in that direction, at least that's the plan.
DaemonAssassin
Why should we Free BSD?
Hmmm.... I see some issues here. I throw charges exactly on every charge with a 550, while running it as a progressive. I am also able to maintain 1/1000th of an inch, either side of zero, but 95 times out of 100, I am dead on the money for OAL. The Dillon is a truly incredible machine, if you know how to run it properly as a progressive press.
The only time I have OAL issues is when I use some factory seconds boolits, but those are for plinking loads, so being off a little bit doesn't matter very much.
DaemonAssassin
Why should we Free BSD?
Your 550 as a single stage press will do you very well in that role. Ask me how I know about that one too.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Same here.
And depending on the powder, my 650 throws a charge that is less than 0.05 grains (estimated from scale marking, bu definitely well less than 0.1 grain change) off the set charge weight.
Another thing is, bullet seating is more to do with the die than the press. Just use a precision die set.
That, and consistent press operation (rate and pressure on the handle). But that applies to a single stage as well.
dist1646
Ultimate Member
That is amazing! I have measured the OAL of Sierra bullets from the same lot/box and have found up to 0.015" variance on just the bullet. Lately, I have found the same thing with Noslers too. Nosler used to be ran and boxed from individual machines so, they were extremely consistent. Guess that changed.
The critical measurement in regards to accuracy, is the one taken on the ogive where it contacts the lands of the rifling. VLD style bullets are very sensitive to this.
OAL is something I use just to insure the round will fit in the magazine. I measure several sample rounds and adjust OAL for the longest round to fit in the magazine with a little room to spare, depending on the type of bullet used and how much bearing surface is held by the case neck.
I have taken to using a VLD style seating stem for almost all of my competition ammo because it contacts the bullet much closer to point where the ogive contacts the rifling. Conventional seating stems contact the bullet too close to the nose of the bullet. The majority of inconsistencies I have found are closer to the bullet nose due to the way bullets are mass manufactured.
DaemonAssassin
Why should we Free BSD?
30 years of reloading makes sure my technique for pulling the lever is on point.
You are like 31!!!
DaemonAssassin
Why should we Free BSD?
36. My dad started teaching me when I was 5 years old. Knew how to do everything by the time I was 6 and a half and was helping him make hunting ammo.
They doing that with bergers, lot to lot.....even base to ogive, 2x what you're seeing with sierra's. Berger recently had been the worst, I don't use them lol
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
OAL is only important for fitting into magazines.
For accuracy, you need to measure to the same point of the ogive.
The meplat (point) is not consistent on match bullets due to the open tip.
Well if they are tipped, they are....or if you trim them and repoint them lol
But agreed, ogive is where you need to measure
Ok, guys. I've been reloading since the early 80s. Did some bench rest primarily with .222 (the bees knees back then) and 6mm Remington. Also did some IHMSA shooting wildcats like the 30 Herrett. All my straight wall pistol loads (38 sp, 357 mag, 44 mag etc) were full length resized by necessity. However, I generally got my best accuracy with neck sized only cases using Bottleneck brass cases sorted like many of you have described. Idea was to have the brass fit the chamber tightly and consustently. Now that works for bolt guns and break action (like my T/Cs), but what do you guys do in ARs and similar semi autos? Being an old guy who only rarely shot semi autos way back in the day, convention was to only full length resize for semis. Obviously, this was in part because neck sized only ammo often wouldn't fit other rifle chambers (regardless of action type) as well and could even cause feeding issues. So what particular means do you use on ARs or even other semi autos to enhance accuracy as regards to resizing? Do you use small base dies or ither means to this end? I saw nothing in the thread about any special brass sizing techiques. To be sure I have done some reloading for the AR platform and get relatively good accuracy. But I really haven't played with working up loads specifically for semis so as to push for maximum accuracy in that platform. FYI, many years ago I did some shooting in M1 leagues with a Garand and did OK if unspectacular. But I really didn't play with the sizing issue with the '06 liaded for the Garand Just straight FL resizing and then use my preferred load with Sierra Match King bullets.
- Feb 4, 2013
- 28,175
Times change.
Most long range shooters (F-class and tactical) are full length resizing, with a 1 - 3 thousandths shoulder bump. Your chamber may not be perfectly round or my not be perfectly straight. So your cases, after firing, are possibly not round or straight. FL sizing with a small shoulder bump, means the cases chamber easily without any issues.
And tests have shown no degradation is accuracy.
For semi auto, with less camming force, you bump the shoulder back 3 - 5 thou, to make sure they chamber easily and the bolt closes.
Some advocate small base dies for semi autos, but I have loaded and shot a lot of rounds, from multiple rifles in 5.56 and 7.62 using standard dies, with NO issues.
Most long range shooters (F-class and tactical) are full length resizing, with a 1 - 3 thousandths shoulder bump. Your chamber may not be perfectly round or my not be perfectly straight. So your cases, after firing, are possibly not round or straight. FL sizing with a small shoulder bump, means the cases chamber easily without any issues.
And tests have shown no degradation is accuracy.
For semi auto, with less camming force, you bump the shoulder back 3 - 5 thou, to make sure they chamber easily and the bolt closes.
Some advocate small base dies for semi autos, but I have loaded and shot a lot of rounds, from multiple rifles in 5.56 and 7.62 using standard dies, with NO issues.
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