SBR Questions for an SBR Newbie

Knuckles · Jun 12, 2017

I am looking for some help/guidance with building an AR type SBR. The "Sticky" about SBR's at the top of the forum is dated 2008... Im sure a lot of it is still accurate but I have a few questions...

First off, the SBR I will want to apply for will be registered as "INDIVIDUAL".

I plan to use One(1) of the Two(2) Aero Lowers for my SBR that I just ordered and should be in my possession within a week or so. (I have 2 PRE SB281 lowers that I assume I wouldn't want to use but correct me if i'm wrong please).

I have an Individual Form 4 for a suppressor that is currently pending I applied for thru the Silencer Shop Kiosk at Engage. Can/Will Silencer Shop allow me to use the data they currently have on file for an SBR submission? (Finger Prints, Picture, etc...)

I also am not sure exactly what I want to build yet but I want to get a Form 1 submitted to get in line so to speak. What info do I NEED to decide on when I submit the Form 1?

If there is an easy step-by-step thread on this site or elsewhere someone can point me to, that would be great. Otherwise, any info or help given is appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any helpful guidance.

outrider58 · Jun 12, 2017

I can't help as far as how to fill out a Form 1. All mine were efiled. Some things to be aware of though are you must enter the caliber of said SBR (you can add other calibers on the lower after you get your stamp) and the over all length mut be a minimum of 29" measured with the stock fully extended. There is no minimum barrel length. Just an OAL requirement.

Squaregrouper · Jun 12, 2017

outrider58 said:
I can't help as far as how to fill out a Form 1. All mine were efiled. Some things to be aware of though are you must enter the caliber of said SBR (you can add other calibers on the lower after you get your stamp) and the over all length mut be a minimum of 29" measured with the stock fully extended. There is no minimum barrel length. Just an OAL requirement.

With Marylandistan's new 29" OAL requirement combined with The BATFE saying pistols are legal to shoulder again, I wouldn't SBR anything. Build yourself a pistol and use a Kak Blade, Sig Brace, etc.
If you're doing 5.56/.223, look into how quickly ballistics drop when barrel lengths go below 12". A 7" AR15 barrel in 5.56/.223 will have ballistics so poor it would surprise you.

HordesOfKailas · Jun 12, 2017

squaregrouper said:
With Marylandistan's new 29" OAL requirement combined with The BATFE saying pistols are legal to shoulder again, I wouldn't SBR anything. Build yourself a pistol and use a Kak Blade, Sig Brace, etc.
If you're doing 5.56/.223, look into how quickly ballistics drop when barrel lengths go below 12". A 7" AR15 barrel in 5.56/.223 will have ballistics so poor it would surprise you.

That's precisely where 300BLK shines. And I agree, there's not much point in SBRing something with all of the fantastic brace options out there.

outrider58 · Jun 12, 2017

squaregrouper said:
With Marylandistan's new 29" OAL requirement combined with The BATFE saying pistols are legal to shoulder again, I wouldn't SBR anything. Build yourself a pistol and use a Kak Blade, Sig Brace, etc.
If you're doing 5.56/.223, look into how quickly ballistics drop when barrel lengths go below 12". A 7" AR15 barrel in 5.56/.223 will have ballistics so poor it would surprise you.

I dig what you are saying, but there are options:

Shock wave- $100
Add a Law Tactical gen 3 folder(cause you can on a pistol)- $230
SB Tactical PDW brace- $300+ (the wait might be the same as a stamp :rolleyes:

)
Form 1 SBR- $200 stamp

Op could get a PDW, build up his SBR and keep the brace on it(careful, PDWs are 1 1/2" shorter than a standard mil spec carbine stock)

Knuckles · Jun 12, 2017

I understand what you are saying on the pistol idea... I may go that way.

I do want to also investigate fully the SBR route cuz I have other toys to shoot & a comfy stock has its advantages...

So looking into it more I believe Barrel length & caliber needs to be decided on & submitted on a Form 1. I have a 762-SDN-6 & I like the cost per round of .223/5.56 over 300 blk so ... i just need to decide on length & find something in stock & figure out if I can use the data SS has on me for a form 1

HordesOfKailas · Jun 12, 2017

outrider58 said:
I dig what you are saying, but there are options:

Shock wave- $100
Add a Law Tactical gen 3 folder(cause you can on a pistol)- $230
SB Tactical PDW brace- $300+ (the wait might be the same as a stamp)
Form 1 SBR- $200 stamp

Op could get a PDW, build up his SBR and keep the brace on it(careful, PDWs are 1 1/2" shorter than a standard mil spec carbine stock)

I got my KAK Shockwave for ~$40 last year. Look for sales. Added convienence is no need to notify ATF if leaving the state. Big deal for me.

outrider58 · Jun 12, 2017

Knuckles said:
I understand what you are saying on the pistol idea... I may go that way.

I do want to also investigate fully the SBR route cuz I have other toys to shoot & a comfy stock has its advantages...

So looking into it more I believe Barrel length & caliber needs to be decided on & submitted on a Form 1. I have a 762-SDN-6 & I like the cost per round of .223/5.56 over 300 blk so ... i just need to decide on length & find something in stock & figure out if I can use the data SS has on me for a form 1

I've had several 10.5" 5.56 barrels and they've all shot well for me. Are you going to get 20" barrel velocities? No. That doesn't mean they're going to dribble out the end of the barrel. You're pretty much stuck with a 10.5" (or longer) barrel or you'd have to do some finagling with certain stocks. Short barrels aren't necessarily made for long range pokes anyhow. That SDN should work fine on a 5.56 bbl. :thumbsup:

outrider58 · Jun 12, 2017

HordesOfKailas said:
I got my KAK Shockwave for ~$40 last year. Look for sales. Added convienence is no need to notify ATF if leaving the state. Big deal for me.

Tube and all? I got one last Christmas for about the same price, but it was blade only. I put it on my own Buffer tube.

HordesOfKailas · Jun 12, 2017

outrider58 said:
Tube and all? I got one last Christmas for about the same price, but it was blade only. I put it on my own Buffer tube.

Brace + tube. I already had the spring, buffer and castle nut. It was also around that time (maybe April) that I got a MFT Minimalist stock for like $29 on Amazon. Deals were falling out of the sky.

MACTHEGUN · Jun 13, 2017

outrider58 said:
I dig what you are saying, but there are options:

Shock wave- $100
Add a Law Tactical gen 3 folder(cause you can on a pistol)- $230
SB Tactical PDW brace- $300+ (the wait might be the same as a stamp)
Form 1 SBR- $200 stamp

Op could get a PDW, build up his SBR and keep the brace on it(careful, PDWs are 1 1/2" shorter than a standard mil spec carbine stock)

Something to consider though, since the ATFE has had it's recent "epiphany" in regard to pistol braces, any modification to lengthen (or essentially make "more comfortable to shoot from the shoulder") such as adding the Law Tactical device would then put you squarely back into the dreaded "made or re-made" territory.

I'm still trying to figure out if using the KAK-Sig brace buffer tube (that simply keeps the brace from slipping forward) with my Sig brace is going to be a problem.

outrider58 · Jun 13, 2017

MACTHEGUN said:
Something to consider though, since the ATFE has had it's recent "epiphany" in regard to pistol braces, any modification to lengthen (or essentially make "more comfortable to shoot from the shoulder") such as adding the Law Tactical device would then put you squarely back into the dreaded "made or re-made" territory.

I'm still trying to figure out if using the KAK-Sig brace buffer tube (that simply keeps the brace from slipping forward) with my Sig brace is going to be a problem.

What is the "dreaded made or remade territory"? I'm not sure I'm following you.

Also, if you plan to use a Shock Wave Blade in conjunction with a Law folder, you will want to go with the shorter pistol BT. The one without the collar. The folder will add a couple inches.

The SB PDW comes complete with a proprietary buffer tube so there's no getting around that one.

MACTHEGUN · Jun 14, 2017

outrider58 said:
What is the "dreaded made or remade territory"? I'm not sure I'm following you.

Also, if you plan to use a Shock Wave Blade in conjunction with a Law folder, you will want to go with the shorter pistol BT. The one without the collar. The folder will add a couple inches.

The SB PDW comes complete with a proprietary buffer tube so there's no getting around that one.

Sorry, I was alluding to the ATF letter before this last one regarding the pistol brace wherein they mention that simply shouldering the brace constituted "making or re-making" the firearm into a SBR and since the OP was asking about SBR's specifically, I assumed that had he went the pistol route as suggested, he would be shouldering same.

In the latest ATF "clarification" letter, it was stated that although incidentally shouldering a pistol may not be construed as a violation, modifying the brace so as to make it more comfortable to fire from the shoulder (such as removing the strap, extending it, etc.) would effectively have "made or re-made" the pistol into a SBR.

I would surmise that adding a Law Tactical folder could/would create the above condition.

Biggfoot44 · Jun 14, 2017

In general, that is the made/ remade situation

Speculating on the Law Tactical Folder , a strong agrument could be made that its primary purpose is to fold for more compact storage, and any increase in length is incidental.

MACTHEGUN · Jun 14, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
In general, that is the made/ remade situation

Speculating on the Law Tactical Folder , a strong agrument could be made that its primary purpose is to fold for more compact storage, and any increase in length is incidental.

I agree wholeheartedly as I have one and would like for that to be the case. Unfortunately, that argument would probably have to be made in court or worse yet to the ATF in the form of a (God forbid) letter.

outrider58 · Jun 14, 2017

Biggfoot44 said:
In general, that is the made/ remade situation

Speculating on the Law Tactical Folder , a strong agrument could be made that its primary purpose is to fold for more compact storage, and any increase in length is incidental.

That being said, if a person is worried about being spotted "accidentally" shouldering their AR pistol, adding a couple inches will push the Blade further back towards the shooter's shoulder. That was the point I was trying to make.

MACTHEGUN · Jun 14, 2017

outrider58 said:
That being said, if a person is worried about being spotted "accidentally" shouldering their AR pistol, adding a couple inches will push the Blade further back towards the shooter's shoulder. That was the point I was trying to make.

You are correct. However, making that type of modification may create a problem is what I'm implying.

Simply shouldering the brace isn't a problem but modifying the system to more easily make shouldering do-able would be (per ATF's latest letter).

outrider58 · Jun 14, 2017

I think you're still missing my point so I'll try again. Adding the folder in and of itself doesn't make it easier to shoulder. That's up to anyone's interpretation. If you add one to a collared pistol tube(instead of the shorter type I recommended) that interpretation becomes a concern. No longer incidental.

Personally, I don't see the harm either way.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

MACTHEGUN · Jun 14, 2017

outrider58 said:
I think you're still missing my point so I'll try again. Adding the folder in and of itself doesn't make it easier to shoulder. That's up to anyone's interpretation. If you add one to a collared pistol tube(instead of the shorter type I recommended) that interpretation becomes a concern. No longer incidental.

Personally, I don't see the harm either way.

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

Lol, I gotcha, I don't see the harm either.

It may not make it easier to shoulder but would arguably make it more comfortable to use (due to a more appropriate length) and "comfort to use as a shoulder stock" was a criteria called out in ATF's latest letter as I recall.

Basically, their take is the brace was designed to be a brace and although they now admit that you can "use" it other than as designed, if you modify the gun whereas you can more easily (or comfortably) use it as a stocked gun, you're taking a chance.

Of course you can argue that the folder is there only to facilitate folding but they may whip out the old "constructive intent" handbook on ya.

I'm just offering the OP the latest facts to help him make an informed/safe choice.

fred333 · Jun 15, 2017

squaregrouper said:
With Marylandistan's new 29" OAL requirement combined with The BATFE saying pistols are legal to shoulder again, I wouldn't SBR anything. Build yourself a pistol and use a Kak Blade, Sig Brace, etc.

I couldn't agree more. With all the hurdles and unconstitutional walls separating us from our civil rights, especially in the context of today's "arm brace" technology, except in cases of vintage collectibles (where parts authenticity is paramount), I'd opt to avoid the NFA route. Going with a brace is not only cheaper and comes without the six to 13 month delays (it took nearly 1.5 years for ATF to process my last silencer paperwork!!), but you're not required to get a permission slip from ATF every time you cross a state line (e.g., going to the NRA range from MD).

If you're doing 5.56/.223, look into how quickly ballistics drop when barrel lengths go below 12". A 7" AR15 barrel in 5.56/.223 will have ballistics so poor it would surprise you.

Unless you need to hit targets beyond, say, 300 yards, I would disagree. I've got an 11.5" on the XM and it's accurate—albeit a bit obnoxiously loud—out to ~300 yards. If you need something for long distance, I'd probably opt for something chambered in .30 anyway.

SBR Questions for an SBR Newbie

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