MarColMar and HMG Cetme L a Detailed Comparison

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  • Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    Do I get to put my grimy paws on stuff? For example, I saw a Steyr MPi 69 in one of those videos. It seems a shame to come all that way if all I can do is stare. As should be obvious, I REALLY like details.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Do I get to put my grimy paws on stuff? For example, I saw a Steyr MPi 69 in one of those videos. It seems a shame to come all that way if all I can do is stare. As should be obvious, I REALLY like details.

    Well... thats between you and the owner. You are welcome to check out my stuff in more detail but you will have to work it out with whoever it is who owns it. If you come talk to me, I might be able to get you a bit better access but no promises other than my guns. That said, if you have one or two guns in particular, I might be able to arrange something for you. If so email me, phiteshe@vt.edu
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    Well, I finally got the chance to get the MCM rifle to the range this past weekend. I was really looking forward to this because, having had the HMG one for a while now and enjoying how reliable and accurate it is, I was expecting more of the same from the new MCM. It was the first decently warm day we've had here for months so that, coupled with it being a Sunday, meant a full range. Normally, I start a new rifle at 25 yards to make sure it's on paper and walk it out from there but, because it was so busy, I didn't want to bother people so I just set my target out at 100 yard and hoped for the best. I guess I could use a spotting scope but I don't own one, You see, I'm a pretty unsophisticated guy and I enjoy the walking back and forth as it's good for me. Besides, the range I use is often pretty deserted so I just fire a few rounds, walk down to check the target, adjust the sights and repeat. The disadvantage to this way of doing things is that it's pretty much unworkable with a busy range. That's ok, it just gives me an excuse to go to the range more often!
    Anywho, I set the target up and commenced to shooting 100 rounds of plain ol' Lake City M855 ball as recommended by the manual.
    Let's start with reliability. I had exactly zero problems. In fact, it was quite obvious that MarColMAr put a lot of effort into tuning the springs just right. I own a fair number of roller locked firearms from Switzerland, Germany, Turkey and Pakistan so I am used to how these things usually eject the casings into orbit and mangle them while doing so. The only exception to this rule until this past weekend has been my SIG 510. That rifle almost drops the casings out at your feet because the design is so perfectly balanced.....it's Swiss.....that's what they do. But I digress.
    The HMG rifle ejects casings just like my HK93, violently and destructively. The MCM AMG is in direct contrast to that and is more like the SIG. Casings were uniformly ejected at about 2 o'clock and landed about 8 feet away.
    Let's take a look at a random sampling of ten spent cartridges:

    It's hard to tell from my terrible washed out picture but almost every single one is dented (from slapping against the receiver) in almost exactly the same place. I used to seeing cases so mangled (again, with the SIG being a notable exception) they look like they were beat with a hammer. I'm no engineer but the uniformity of marks on the brass tells me the system is almost perfectly balanced.


    Here's a closeup of the dent's I'm talking about:

    I'm assuming that, if you're reading this, you already understand about flutes on roller locks and why spent rounds are so dirty so I won't bother discussing that.


    However, just for fun, I want post a picture illustrating how the brass expanded into the flutes a little which is, of course, perfectly normal:

    I just love looking at these things. Roller locks turn each spent casing into a miniature work of art. I wish I could keep them all.


    Here we see that only the case on the far right shows any sign of neck deformity. Usually, these things are pretty smashed in:



    And the base:

    Not much to see here.


    So, so far, reliability is perfect!


    Next up are some thoughts on the front sight. As I pointed out earlier in this thread, the front sight on the MCM is much thinner than the one that came on my HMG rifle so it should be more precise. While I'm sure it is, that is lost on my aging eyes. I'm sure that I could have made better use of the front sight 20 years ago but it's just too thin for me now. It's so blurry that much of the time I was guessing about where the top of it was. If I REALLY concentrated, I could sometimes make it out but the fact is, at my age, a wider front sight post would be better. Of course, MCM makes a version with a rail on top the receiver so I could but one of those and mount an optic but I'm a purist and wanted my AMG to be as close to original as possible. This precluded a rail. My advise to MarColMar is that they offer front sight blades of different widths so that us older dudes can tune our sights to our geezerish peepers.

    I'd also like to say something about the trigger pull. As I said, I'm not very sophisticated so I don't have one of those fancy-dancy trigger pull weight thingees. This means I have no idea what weight the pull actually is. What I do know is that, at round number 1, the MCM rifle had a trigger pull almost identical to my HK93 and 91, which is to say it's kind of heavy and creepy. I can also tell you that the HMG rifle has a pull significantly less heavy and less creepy than any of those three. The good news is, by round number 100, it was much lighter and smoother. It still isn't quite as good as the HMG trigger but it's now better than my HK's which have had a metric ton of rounds through them over the past 30 years. They are most definitely NOT getting any better at this point. SO, kudo's to both MCM and HMG on besting the Teutonic gods!

    Let's move on to accuracy.
    I'd love to tell you how accurate this rifle is but I can't. After I fired all 100 rounds I waited for the range to go cold and headed down to retrieve the target, curious as to how well it grouped. To my slight surprise, the target was as whole as when I hung it up. Not one round touched it. I thought, "that's damned odd" and headed home, hoping to head out the next day when the range would likely be much less busy.
    I was in luck as the next day there were only a few of us at the range. So, I set my target out at 25 yards, loaded three rounds into the magazine, took aim and fired. Of the first three shots, only one was on the very far left. No problem. Crank the rear sight to the right five or six clicks and try again. The next three were farther right but still nowhere near the center of the target. Lets crank it farther right. Click, click, click, stop. Oh crap....the sight is buried as far right as it will go! Let's try three more rounds. Nope, still well left of center. We have a problem.
    Here's the 25 yard target:

    The single hole circled in blue was part of my first three rounds. The next set is circled in green. By the third set of shots, circled in red, you can tell I beginning to get frustrated as the shot dispersion is opening up. Disheartened, I cleaned up and headed home to take pictures.

    Here are a few pictures of the rear sight as it currently sits:







    Having been shooting for more decades than I want to admit now and having owned the HMG Cetme L for some time as well, I think I'm pretty good on knowing how to aim a rifle but, just to be sure, I took the rifle to the range again today and recruited two random guys to try the rifle out at 25 yards. One was an older gentleman whom I often see at the range so I know he shoots a fair amount. The other was a younger guy who I have only run into one other time but he obviously knows what he is doing as well. I still had 9 rounds of M855 ball left from Monday when I tried to zero the rifle so I asked one guy to fire five rounds at the bottom of the black using a six o'clock hold. I then asked the other shooter to fire six rounds at the colored dot using the same six o'clock hold. Below is the result with the first guy circled in red:

    I hate to say it but, at this point, I have a beautiful green rifle that cannot be zeroed. I guess I need to contact MarColMar. It's under warranty so I have no doubt that MCM will do whatever is necessary to correct the problem. I will report back.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,642
    MoCo
    Its easy to get a trunnion welded in crooked. Had a friend weld a PSG1 clone a little off. I've gotten lucky so far but I check it more carefully now before finishing welding.
    Take the gun apart and sight down the receiver through the barrel. Are the two centered/colinear? It's clearly visible if its off that much.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    MCM has already contacted me and I was told that they have changed their production methods to make sure this won't be an issue going forward. They have also told me that they will do whatever it takes to fix the issue with my rifle. Stellar customer service! I'll be reporting back once it's taken care of.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    I've wanted to update this thread for a while now but I've been kinda' busy. And because I've not been at it for a bit, a lot of information has piled up so this is going to take a few posts. This first post is gonna' be a lot of text. Sorry about that but you can't tell a story without words.

    I'll start just a bit before I left off. It turns out that Dave Bane from MarColMar has been reading my posts about the rifle so he contacted me (prior to the zeroing problem) and offered me the opportunity to tour the factory, look through parts for interesting variations and just generally hang out to get a feel for what MarColMar is as a company. Dave even offered to pick me up at the airport. Would you pass up an opportunity to hang out with a manufacturer for a day and play with guns? Neither would I so I eagerly accepted. I asked if I could bring my rifles along and he said "Bring whatever you want. Frank (one of the designers who it turns out looks an awful lot like Hooper from "Jaws") likes Swiss stuff so we'll have some of that here for you to check out too." SO, rather than mess around with airlines, boxing up rifles and all that jazz, I decided to just drive out rather than fly. It's only about seven hours from my place and my Honda hasn't been on a road trip for a while.

    Then, just a few days before I was to head out to Indiana, I took my rifle out for its first range trip and discovered the zeroing problem. I contacted MCM and they couldn't have been more pleasant. "Make sure you bring it along and we'll do whatever it takes to make it right." Good customer service is key to a happy customer. So, I packed up the ol' Hondoonie on a Wednesday morning and headed out six hours to Springfield Ohio to spend the night with a lifelong friend before getting up bright and early Thursday morning for the last hour to MCM.

    I had no trouble finding the place and the first person I ran into was Jeff, who through the course of the day I discovered is wicked smart (and good looking too!). I introduced myself and asked for Dave. Jeff said he wasn't there and I grinned. Jeff grinned back and motioned me in so I followed along. I knew right away this was going to be fun! On the way through the front office, I met Charlie, the resident Golden Retriever. His main job seems to be saying "hello" with a big wagging tail and instant love. I've never met a dog I didn't like!! Upon entering the factory floor, I was introduced to Dave and Frank (Hooper drives the boat chief). As Dave put his hand out for a shake, I noticed he had working man's hands. He was also wearing a t-shirt with stains and jeans. I liked him immediately. After asking me how the trip was and exchanging niceties, we headed back through the factory to the final assembly and storage room for a very nicely informal meet and greet. As Frank pulled out a stool for me to have a seat on, I looked around the room and admired all the Cetme's sitting on racks. It was part of an order they were getting ready for shipment to a distributor:






    We sat for a bit, Dave, Frank and me and just talked; about MarColMar, the Cetme, firearms in general, manufacturing, politics, things unrelated to any of those things and just stuff in general. I think they were feeling me out to make sure I wasn't a nut or a weirdo and I guess I passed the test (HA!! I fooled them!!) because in no time, I felt like I was among friends. When we came around to the topic of my rifle Dave said, "pick any rifle off the rack you want; it's yours." Now THAT'S customer service!! I was tempted as I saw number 112 sitting there but I didn't feel that would be right and my mother raised me better than that. So I declined and asked Dave to try to repair my rifle first. He couldn't sell it as new anymore and I couldn't in good conscience ask for a brand new rifle if mine could be reasonably repaired. He said, "I know you wanted a low serial number so I'll take 112 out of the shipment and set it aside for now. If I can't repair yours, I'll sent you that one." Fair enough. I was also told that, after they read about my problem, they went back and rechecked every rifle they had in stock. Although none were off nearly as much as mine was, they did find a couple that were off more than they would have liked. They tracked the problem down to a misaligned jig and had since made adjustments to correct the problem. Next, we went for a tour of the factory.

    As we walked around, Jeff met back up with us and walked me through the process of manufacturing various things step by step. I was welcome to take pictures of some things and I was asked not to take pictures of others. Just to be safe, I took pictures of nothing. Here's why. It was obvious within seconds that MarColMar isn't just putting parts kits back together with a new receiver and barrel. Rather, they are MANUFACTURING an essentially new rifle using highly automated (and outrageously expensive) machines and top Quality materials. The automated machine used to produce the trigger boxes looks like something straight out of NASA and it's as clean as a contraption they would use too! The number of jigs that must be used simply to weld the receiver was amazing and each one had to be designed and built from the ground up. Because of the massive amount of time, energy and money invested, I wouldn't be right or fair to MCM for me to post pictures of all that. It's far, far easier to copy someone else than it is to use your own brain to figure out a problem and I have no interest in helping someone else steal what amounts to industrial secrets from MCM. Go figure it out yourself! I'm not exaggerating when I tell you, this ain't as simple as you think it is. Anyone who has any experience at all in the manufacturing industry knows what I'm talking about. Cost took a back seat to Quality and the amount of engineering that was put into the project must have been considerable to say the least. Dave ran through some of the costs involved. All were high but the one that stuck with me the most was the cost of the dies to make the rear sling swivel. I had wondered if they used originals and simply refinished them but I was told (and later saw first hand) that the originals were in too poor a condition to suit MCM so they decided to reproduce them. When MCM met with the die maker, they were advised that they could be made much cheaper if they were slightly simplified.
    "Will they look just like the originals?"
    "Not exactly but that is actually a pretty complex part to stamp out the way it is. If we make some subtle changes, it'll really save you some money."
    "Nope. We want it to look as original as possible. What'll that cost for dies?"
    $75,000. SOLD!!
    An original picked at random(there are variations):


    A MarColMar reproduction:

    Think of that $75,000 price tag for such a seemingly simple part the next time you admire your Cetme. If MarColMar sells 10,000 rifles, just the cost of the dies to make this one part accounts for $7.50 per rifle and that's considering neither the steel the swivel is made from nor the finish applied. An entire M1 Carbine cost the US Govt. about 45 bucks back in WWII. I often hear folks balking at the cost of new firearms these days. Quality ain't cheap folks, especially when you are trying to recreate something that was made decades ago with different technology. I was told the cost of the receiver dies but I didn't retain it. It was sky high though. I can tell you that.

    It was much the same with the furniture. A local casket manufacturer was contracted to provide all of the polymer bits. They explained to MarColMar that technology had changed considerably since the original furniture was made and that the molds used to make them back then were very complicated and expensive by todays standards. If they would just simplify the part a bit, e.g. remove the cooling cavities on the bottom of the handguard, the price to produce would drop considerably. Nope...….it's got to be as close to original as possible save for making it out of better polymer.

    The examples above illustrated two things about MCM that really impressed me and I discussed that with Dave, Frank and Jeff. First, they are extremely detail oriented. They want to produce a rife that looks as close to original as possible yet is superior to an original both in materials and Quality of build. They also re-engineered some aspects of the design to make it more reliable than an original; little things you'll never even notice like the spring K factors (look up Hooke's Law) and magazine to trunnion feed geometry. The extractor springs are made from (IIRC, I'm no engineer) chrome silicon and the aluminum used for the trigger boxes is of a particular alloy that is superior to an original. The barrels are cold hammer forged and the Ceracote finish used is far better than the original paint.

    Second, they are committed to making as many parts as possible in the US and as locally as they can. In fact, ALL new made parts on the rifle, the manual and all of the packaging are made in the United States with most of them being sourced in Indiana. The only exception is the gun lock that ships with each rifle. That part was literally 10x as expensive if sourced in the US. MCM figured that, since most people circular file that thing anyways, save a bit of dough on that one. I'd have made the same decision as I can honestly say I've never used one in almost forty years. Do you?

    Another thing I asked about was the finish on the non painted parts, specifically, how did they acquire bolts and bolt carrier that looked as new. I was told that not one part on the rifle has the original finish. Every single original part is stripped to bare metal, inspected and refinished. Where possible and prudent, the original finish is recreated as closely as possible.

    I mentioned earlier about the new springs being tuned to the design. This was done using a special high speed camera and a modified receiver. I took a few pictures of the test receiver:




    The lines you see on the receiver and bolt carrier are indexing marks. The camera takes thousands of pictures per second and they can figure out the proper spring settings by knowing where the action is in the cycle compared to time elapsed.


    This window allows them to see how far the bolt carrier has moved to the rear at the end of its stroke. Too far to the rear and you are beating the rifle to pieces because the springs are too soft. Too far forward and the springs are too stiff which will create feeding problems. It's gotta be juuuust right! Judging from my experience, this was money and research very well spent.


    I've got a lot more to post but it's late and I gotta' pay the bills tomorrow. I'll be back with some more.
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    Picking up where we left off......

    One of the rifles I spotted sitting on a rack was a short barreled version with a collapsible stock, known as the CETME LC. It's still in semi-prototype stage as they are still optimizing some of the details but I was told that it will be for sale in the near future. Unfortunately, not a whole bunch of these rifles were produced to begin with and even fewer have survived. Out of around 10,000 kits acquired by MarColMar only about 645 of them were this version so they will be offering this version on a limited basis. To quote Dave from this past December,
    "...…..to be fair to our customers and those that have been on board for the last two years... we are going to supply to each buyer of the CETME L a card to register their desire to buy an LC. We will then draw in order and contact the customers. Those that want them will have the opportunity to buy. If we get to the end of the list and there are some left, we will leave them available to the open market.

    On the LVs (that's the version wit a scope mount in place of the normal rear sight), we are working with the awesome guys at APEX to try to find original ENOSA scopes for the guns, if that does not work, we will be working with a couple scope manufacturers at SHOT to see if we can't get quality copies made to do this rifle justice. We will then do the same thing with an "opportunity lottery" to sell them.

    I know its not a popular course of action with some... and it may even make some mad... but I believe it is certainly fairer than just dropping them on the website and letting it be first come first served... and frankly if we work through the list and there are some still available, they will STILL be available for sale to those that just want the LC or V.

    Finally we will build the LC in either the 16" or the SBR type, that will be up to the buyer. We will offer it in SBR form (Efiled) or will offer it with a pinned extended flash hider that you can remove after your Form 1, AND you get to keep your CETME while you wait."

    Like a moron, I didn't take any pictures of the assembled rifle but I did get some pictures showing it disassembled and the internal differences between the LC and the standard L. I also got some detail photos of the stock. Let's check it out!



    In the photo above, I have placed a normal L model recoil assembly, bolt group and cocking handle support in front and the same components from an LC behind. It should quickly be obvious that it's not a simple as switching out the stock between the two rifles. The use the same receiver and trigger group but the rest of the guts are different. On a standard rifle, the recoil assembly is housed in the stock but that's not possible on the LC so the bolt carrier was modified to house it. This necessitated a longer nose at the front of the carrier similar to that found on an HK. Consequently, the cocking handle support had to be shortened. Also notice that while the standard rifle has the buffer built into the recoil assembly, there is no such buffer on the LC recoil assembly. Instead, it's built into the stock, again, just like an HK.


    Here's an above shot better illustrating the length difference between the two bolt groups:



    And a 3/4 rear view of the LC bolt showing the cavity for the recoil assembly:



    The stock:


    The butt pad appears to be identical to the L model. Notice the button on top of the back plate. Depressing that allows you to extend and retract the stock. There are only two positions, open and closed. Also note the sling swivel welded on top of the stock fork. We can also see a little pin sticking out the rear of the back plate. Just as on an HK, this is sprung to pop the stock open just a bit when you press the release button (lever on an HK). I like the mechanics of this stock better than an HK but the arms are relatively thin stamped steel so it feels flimsy in comparison. It seems to work fine though. I just wouldn't use it as a hammer.

    Here's a closeup of the opening assist pin at the rear of the back plate:

    Nice welding! You can see that the release button is serrated as opposed to checkered. Not that it matters but......details!


    A view into the front of the backplate:

    Top is to the left of the photo. The upper hole is where the recoil assembly nests and the tube looking thingee in the center of the back plate is the buffer rod which is just like...….you guessed it......an HK.


    While I was taking pictures, Frank was puzzling over my rifle trying to figure out whether or not he could get it fixed that day so that I could take it home with me rather than having it shipped back. He had determined that the front sight base was slightly canted on the barrel and had made some adjustments. He had a laser bore-sight star trek thing sticking out the muzzle and asked me to take a look. It still looked like it was a bit left but the only way to be sure was to test it. At this point, is was about lunch time and the gang offered to take me out to lunch and then head to the range which was at Dave's house. Let me tell you right now. I will NEVER, EVER turn down a chance to have lunch and go shooting with firearms manufacturer dudes....never....ever. So, we grabbed my rifle, an original CETME L and a post sample made by MCM and headed out.

    Lunch was at Little Sheba's in Richmond Indiana and oh my was the food ever good!! If you're ever passing through Richmond, Little Sheba's is home cooked goodness and the staff is mid west friendly!! Check em' out:
    http://www.littleshebas.com/
    I highly recommend the BLT and their potato salad!! And the best part of lunch was Dave saying grace before we ate. God bless the US of A!!


    After lunch, we headed to Dave's for testing but as we pulled into the driveway, he stopped at a nice sized barn. He said he knew I liked Historical military firearms and he had a few interesting ones I might like.
    Do you remember when you were a little kid and it was Christmas morning? I do. I especially remember the Christmas of 1978. I've always been a big fan of Star Wars since I saw the first one at a drive-in in the spring of 1977. I was so young that I didn't fully grasp what I was watching but I knew I loved it anyways. I still do. Anywho, I woke up that Christmas morning not knowing what to expect and wandered groggy eyed out into the house. There, underneath the tree were a bunch of Star Wars toys. I was so excited, I really didn't know how to act. I mean I was dumbfounded. Do I open up the Death Star first or the X-Wing Fighter? WoW!!! Look at all those figures!! Maybe I should check them out first!! I'm not kidding. I was so in awe I just kinda' stood there not knowing what to do!
    Well, that's pretty much how I felt when we went through the side door on this pitch black modern barn and Dave switched on the lights. There, right in front of me was a Chieftan tank:

    I was pretty much speechless.


    Then I saw a T72:

    I've seen them in books and I've seen them on film but I've never stood there staring at one in the flesh. Dave said that, to his knowledge, it's the only example in private hands in the US. I probably seemed like a weirdo because I was just standing there almost speechless. Dave said, "Climb on up and take as many pictures as you want." Well, I just stood there. The only tanks I've ever seen in person have been in museums and you can't just climb all over them. I didn't know what to do.
    "You aren't going to hurt it. It's a tank. Climb on up there." says Dave.
    So, I sheepishly climb the ladder and stepped up on the back deck of the T72 looking down as I went so as not to step on anything I shouldn't although I have no idea what that might be. I mean, I'm standing on an armored vehicle made for combat. What could I possible break by stepping on it?? Again, I was a little dumbstruck and really didn't know what to do. While up there, I took a few other pictures.


    Of the Chieftan again:


    And a T62:





    And a T55 that was captured by the Israeli's and is now being put back in running order:




    And a BMP:



    In another part of the barn was a Czech BMP:

    To the right of the picture is an East German BMP which I didn't take a picture of.


    And a BTR60:



    There was a bunch of other stuff I didn't take pictures of because I'm sure I was not acting normal. This was just so outside my normal realm of experience and I was on information overload. One thing that did get through though was Dave's generosity and just how humble he was. I told him that I didn't mean to pry but how did he afford all these things. His answer was pretty simple. In essence, he said, "God has blessed me with a wonderful wife, great kids and a wonderful life." And here he was, talking to a nobody like me and sharing all these wonderful artifacts. He didn't have to do these things but he did. I've worked in law enforcement for a number of years now so I've learned to be a pretty good and quick judge of character and I can tell when someone is trying to blow smoke. I can tell you after months of correspondence, phone calls and finally, spending the day with him, Dave Bane is a good and decent human being. He strikes me as nothing but sincere when he says that he is trying to build the best rifle he reasonably can and that he will back it up with the best customer service he reasonably can too.

    When I drove out to Indiana, I was of the mind set (remember my profession) that, if this dude is offering me unfettered access to his company and offering to do whatever it takes to make my rifle as perfect as he can, he's going to want something in return. Everyone does. They don't offer something unless they expect something back. So, while I was there I asked Dave, "What would you like me to write about your company and your rifle?"
    His answer told me everything I wanted to hear. He said, "Write whatever you want." Period. End of sentence. He asked me for nothing other than honesty.
    Some people really do do things out of simple kindness. He said, "Your write-up gave me the impression that you were really interested in the CETME L. So I figured you might like to come out to take a look at some of the neat variations in parts and see how we build them." It turns out it really was that simple. If for no other reason than that, I hope MarColMar sells every single rifle they build.



    In the next post, I'll tell you about how my rifle fared at Dave's test range and how the Spanish built rifle stacked up against the MCM on full auto. we'll also look at some furniture color variations. A closer look at an original Spanish built rifle is on the way too. Thanks for taking the time to hang out and read this. I'll see you soon!
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    After checking out the barn full of fun, Dave had to take a conference call so Frank and I headed over to the test range with my rifle, an original and a post sample built by MCM. Since it was just the two of us and I was actually involved in the testing/shooting, I set my camera down and didn't take any pictures. There wasn't much to see anywho. We were just shooting. First, we tried shooting at some reactive steel targets at 100 yards but neither of us could hit the bullseye which, if hit, would swing away to the side. Clearly, we would need to use a measurable target.
    So, Frank and I set up an extremely sophisticated target at 100 yards involving a big piece of cardboard and a couple rocks. Then Frank broke out a can of red spray paint and proceeded to spray a runny red dot.

    "We'll aim for that." NASA would have been proud!

    We walked back to the bench, I shot about five rounds and we then walked back down to take a look. We don't need no stinkin' spotting scope. We got two legs!! It was on the cardboard and much better than it was but it was still shooting to the left.

    "Can you see the sight?"
    "Yes sir, I can"

    So, we walked back and Frank had a crack at it. Still shooting left. Then Frank cranked the rear sight all the way to the right and we tried again. It was close but nope, still shooting left.

    "It's gonna' need more work."
    "Oh well, you'll fix it, I'm sure."

    That was all we could do with my rifle for the day. It was clear that something more than simple tweaking was going to be needed. So, we put my rifle to the side and loaded up a couple magazines for the original. I didn't even bother with the semi-auto setting. I already know how that shoots. I pulled the charging handle to the rear and let it fly...…...failure to feed.

    "Dump the round and try it again."

    That time it loaded. I pulled the trigger and it fired......one round and jammed.
    So, I cleared it and tried again. One or two more and another stoppage.
    We tried another magazine and had similar issues. Eventually, I think I got through about 40 rounds but it was a struggle. There were multiple failures to feed and it never stopped firing because I released the trigger. No, every time it stopped, it was because of a FTF.
    Frank told me it was very magazine sensitive but that it would work decently if it had just the right magazine.
    Judging by my test sample of just one rifle, I can see why Spanish troops were less than enthusiastic about the CETME L.

    Next up was the post sample built by MCM. I inserted a magazine and charged the rifle. Again, I didn't bother with the semi-auto setting as I have plenty of experience with that already. As there is no detent on the MCM receiver for full-auto, I just pushed it down to where the setting would have been and squeezed the trigger. BRAAAAP! Off went a few rounds and the rifle slowly climbed to the right.
    "Lean into it", says Frank.
    So, I lean into it and fire off a few more rounds with no problems. This is fun! After finishing off the magazine using small bursts, Frank hands me another and tells me to dump it.
    "Okiedokie"
    Now, Even though a 5.56 rifle has very little recoil on full-auto, I haven't shot one in that mode for years so I kinda' need to focus on what I'm doing or it's gonna' be all over the place. So, I squeeze the trigger and off it goes, rising to the right again. This time, I kept on the trigger and worked the CETME back down towards my target. I still didn't hit it (yep, still all over the place) but I'm sure I would have scared the hell out of it had it been alive! HAHA!!!
    Again, having not shot anything automatic in a number of years, I'm plenty rusty. But, given a little practice, I'm sure the little CETME would be a pussycat. The straight line stock configuration is well thought out and the overall heft helps too. The main thing that impressed me though was the fact that the original was a jammomatic while the MCM ran like a sewing machine. MCM says that their rifle is better than an original. In my limited experience, I'd say that's an understatement.
    By this time, Dave was finished with his call and showed up at the range. He asked if we were having fun and was my rifle shooting straight.
    "Yes...….and no."
    "We'll make it right."
    "I have no doubt."
    After a little more fooling around and checking out a Swiss 24MM Tb 41 anti-tank gun (the action on that thing is as smooth as a P210), we headed back to the shop. Dave knows how to have a good time.


    Alright, let's look at some color variations present in original furniture. Dave told me that one of the things customers often bring up is the shade of green used for the reproduction polymer and Ceracote. I've noticed this too on the various forums I frequent. "Why did they pick this color because mine is that color?" "Why didn't they properly match the green?" Wellllllll, I discovered it ain't that simple. Most people have only ever seen a couple or maybe even a few more parts kits if they are lucky. Prior to my visiting the factory, I'd held a grand total of zero parts kits in my grimy mitts. Of course, I'd done a lot of online research and looked at many a picture but that's simply not the same thing as holding something in your own hands and seeing it with your own eyes. Many times, a color will look quite different in person than it does in a picture and lighting can change colors too but, of course, you already know that. What Dave told me MCM did was look at a good spectrum of the shades present in original parts and pick an average of those shades. He pointed to a door and said there were a few original bits out there in the warehouse if I was interested so we took a walk.

    Here are a "few" pistol grips:




    And stocks:



    And handguards:



    Looking at the above pictures, it should be obvious that there is no one shade that is "proper" or "correct". Instead, there is an entire RANGE of colors running from grey to forest green. Imagine standing in a pine forest an looking around. Pick any shade you see and you'll find it on a CETME L. I randomly picked some parts from each bin and took them back inside for better pictures.

    Here are seven pistol grips in no particular order under fluorescent lighting:

    Notice that the third from the left is actually grey, not green and the next one to the right is a dark forest green. The remaining five are each a different shade of green.


    Five random stocks in no particular order:

    We see two different shades of grey and three different greens. Also, notice how beat up they are, especially the middle one and check out the rust in the sling swivels. I can 100% understand why MCM had no interest in using this stuff on their new rifles.


    Nine handguards:

    There seems to be much less color variation on these. To be sure I didn't just get a bad sample, I went back out to the warehouse and did a fair amount of rooting through the bin. I could find no grey ones at all and, just like the random sample, there was much less shade variation throughout. Dave said that the handguard was the most complex mold of the three so maybe there were fewer contractors used for this part? That's just a guess of course. We'll probably never know.


    Here is a picture in natural light:

    The MCM rifle has MCM furniture. All the other furniture shown is original.


    An interesting variation in the pistol grip mold:

    Note how much longer the serrations are on the left grip as opposed to the shorter ones on the right. The left grip feels slightly more blocky too. I noticed plenty of both type in the bin.


    Now, I know what you're thinking and no, MCM will not sell you original furniture. My understanding is that, by law, they are not allowed to. Apparently, any parts that were replaced for 922 compliance cannot be sold to the customer by the manufacturer. Apex bought 100 sets of furniture from MCM for resale and Dave said it took him an entire day of digging to come up with 100 nice sets and even they were not perfect. In the picture immediately above, the loose green stock, handguard and the loose pistol grip on the far right is one of the 100 sets sold to Apex. It shows some use but it's pretty nice. IMO, if you simple MUST have an original set, it's well worth the $60 Apex is charging for them. Here's a link:
    https://www.apexgunparts.com/more/furniture/cetme-model-l-stock-set-green-vg.html


    Sadly, by the time you read this, all of the furniture shown above in the bins is probably toast. As Dave was looking through them with me he said,
    "someone put time and pride into manufacturing all these and they end up as so much trash." It does suck but what's he supposed to do? MCM is a manufacturer, not a museum and storage space is at a premium so they can't just let the stuff sit around collecting dust. It reminds me of the photos you sometime see of military goods being destroyed after the war. Stacks and stacks of German helmets, rifles and various other goodies being rounded up for scrap. Time marches on.


    As to the shade variation on the metal parts, I didn't take pictures of that stuff. The furniture was out and available because it was waiting to be picked up for the scrap yard. All of the steel bits are either boxed up awaiting stripping or out on the factory floor having already been refinished. Dave told me that the paint shades on those parts also varied widely and I have no reason to question that. However, I DID find one interesting box of parts lying around:

    These are scope mounts for the LV model. Although they are stripped of parts, notice that they are set up for iron sights as too. They only have parts to build about 145 of the LV so I predict this is going to be a sought after item.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    In this post, we're going to look at few detail shots of an original Cetme L as built by the Spanish. I'm not going into great detail on the rifle because there really is very little difference between it and the MCM offering externally. The HMG rifle is very close too. First, let's start with a word about colors. As noted earlier, the paint and furniture hues varied significantly over the production run of the rifle. When you consider wear, probable multiple subcontractors, exposure to UV light, time, exposure to chemicals and exposure to things I'm not even considering, you're gonna' see a rainbow of greens and even some grey. Again, think pine forest in spring. Another factor is lighting when the picture was taken. Below are two pictures taken of the exact same rifles (an original and a MCM) in the exact same position using the exact same camera. Only the lighting has changed:


    If you didn't know better, you would swear we were looking at four different rifles in four different shade of green. Yes, I sound like I'm beating a dead horse here but I know someone is going to ask why HMG and/or MCM didn't finish their rifles in the same color as the originals. The answer is that they did. They just didn't finish it in the same hue you are looking at. Ok, done with that. Moving on.


    First up are a few overall comparison shots of the three manufacturers.

    Right side:

    Original is at the top with MCM below and HMG on the bottom.


    Left side in same order:



    Detail receiver right side, Spanish:



    MCM:



    HMG:




    Detail receiver left side, Spanish:



    MCM:

    The bit of blue tape is leftover from test firing. MCM tapes off various places during testing so that your rifle's finish doesn't get dinged up in the process.


    HMG:

    There is a serial number there. It just didn't show up for some reason.


    The rest of the pictures in this post will only show an original unless specifically stated otherwise.

    A little bit better shot of the Santa Barbara logo:

    Notice that the pistol grip color doesn't match the stock color.

    Compare the above to the same shot of an MCM. It isn't 100% exact but as close as can be reasonably expected:



    Welds on right side of cocking tube:



    Top of cocking tube:



    Left side of cocking tube:



    Right side of rear sight:



    Left side of rear sight:



    Magazine well markings, reinforcement ribs:




    Selector and serial number:



    Stock pin holes:



    Ejection port flare:

    I originally thought this detail terminated farther toward the front of the port. I was wrong.


    Weld at rear of trunnion where it meets the carrier rail:

    One of my original complaints about the welds on the MCM rifle involved them not copying this detail more closely. I REALLY like how well the Spanish addressed this weld. I just looks so intricately done. But Frank explained to me that MCM decided to close this area up a little more completely because of propellant blowback. I do have to say, while the MCM solution isn't quite as elegant looking as the original, it DOES work as intended.



    Cross section at rear of receiver:



    From another angle:



    Back of rear sight and a view along the receiver:

    Note the paint run at the top rear corner of the sight and, more interesting, the fact that there is no divot for a scope mount. Some rear sights have it and some don't. I have no idea why but I'd bet that it's absent on later production.


    Trigger box:

    It is shown above with the hammer fully down and being held by the safety sear. When the bolt group locks forward and your finger is off the trigger, it will trip the safety sear and the hammer will rise slightly to the position shown below where it is being held by the trigger sear:

    Whoop-de-do! Why does this even matter?? Here's why. Practically speaking, you don't need to remover the trigger box for cleaning every time you clean the rifle; it just doesn't get that dirty. Removing the trigger box is, to be blunt, a fiddly pain in the buttocks so it would be nice if you could leave the box in place, just pull the funky dirty bolt group out, clean it, clean your barrel and then slap it all back together. Well, on an original rifle you can do that because, when you pull the bolt to the rear, the safety sear holds the hammer low enough that it does not interfere with your sliding the bolt group back into the receiver and driving it home. Unfortunately, the safety sear is not present on the either the MCM or HMG rifles because it's a full-automatic part. This means that the hammer is only ever held by the trigger sear in the higher position thus preventing the bolt from being driven home without having first removed the trigger box. That kinda' blows but the alternative is having no rifle at all thanks to silly ATF rules. I hope that all made sense!


    Bolt group showing Spanish applied finish:

    When I first disassembled my MCM rifle, I assumed it just came out of an unissued rifle because the phosphate finish looked exactly like the finish seen here. Nope. Every single original part has been stripped and refinished by MCM. It just looks identical to the original finish because they REALLY did their homework. Schweet!!


    Weld at front of magazine well:

    This is another detail that I originally found a bit disappointing on the MCM rifle but have since discovered is done just like an original. On the HMG AMG, this weld is ground flat and nicely dressed. It looks better (and that's nice) but it's not original. MCM left it just as an original would be (and that's nice too). This is one of those little things that makes me like both the HMG and MCM offerings. Both have plenty of things to like.


    In my limited experience, Spanish firearms are usually almost completely devoid of markings save for the main ones. They aren't like German or Soviet firearms where you find little inspection marks all over the place. True to form, this marking on the barrel is the only one I found:

    Maybe if I spent hours pouring over every single nook and cranny, I would have found a couple more but I simply didn't have that kind of time. I asked Dave if I could just take it home with me and I'd return it in a week and he just grinned. Yes, I know that would be illegal. Don't get yourself in a snit.


    Alright, that's it for tonight. We're in the home stretch. Just a couple more small things to cover (including a look at what was done to repair my rifle including my first range trip after I got it back) and we're done. As always, thank you for your time and I will leave you with a word of advise. Avoid dropping your rifle from a 100 foot cliff. It may break when it hits the bottom. OK bye!!
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    Sorry I haven't been at this for a bit but it's spring and things don't get done around the property unless you take the time to do them!

    Before moving on to the repair on my rifle, I just have a couple loose ends to tie up. First, are a couple pictures of a few final assembly stations. This is where assembly of your rifle is finished up and Quality checked prior to test firing:





    I noticed an unbent flat with parts assembled to it showing an "inside" view of the Cetme. I thought it was kinda' neat so I snapped a shot:



    It wasn't all about Cetme's. The guys knew I love Swisstory so they told me they'd have a few things there I might be interested in. One of them was a select fire Chilean contract 510, shown here with my AMT:


    Chilean marking on receiver:




    SIG built it with a different pistol grip than they offered on the US imports:


    AMT grip for comparison shown on the left:


    There are other differences between the two and Dave had lots of other nice Swiss things including a Tb-41 anti-tank rifle but......that's a topic for a different time. Back to the task at hand.


    As I finished up my day with the fine folks at MarColMar, I asked one thing of Mr. Bane. After briefly explaining my fascination with origami firearms I asked it I could take a receiver flat with me. I told Dave that I would not sell it and I would not build a rifle on it. I simply wanted one for a souvenir of a day well spent and I also wanted one because I consider such things as Industrial Art. Dave graciously obliged and he gave me a neato MarColMar cap too! I think it looks good hanging in my home as Art, a vessel for good memories and as a reminder of new friends! I just have to decide which way it looks best :



    My Honey's brother was over today and asked, "What's that bracket for?" He had no idea what it was and I guess he thought it was for hanging a TV or some such device. Everyone has their own thoughts about what constitutes sculpture I guess. LOL.



    Alright, time to wrap this up.
    I left my rifle at MCM on a Thursday and headed home. They determined that the front sight tower was askew and this was causing the problem. They tried to repair it while I was there and, while it was better, it was still shooting a few inches left at 100 yards with the rear sight moved fully to the right. The following Monday, I received an email telling me that it as now shooting straight and a picture was attached showing me the results on a target at 100 yards. I wrote back, asking what was done and received a highly detailed and technical description which, because I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, I did not 100% understand. Suffice it to say, they removed the sight, dressed the barrel and repined it using a solid steel pin. I was also told that they are changing production methods slightly so that this does not happen in the future. By the end of the week, I had my rifle back in hand. It was returned to me extremely well packed, the test target was in the box, and the entire rifle was cleaned and oiled. I couldn't have asked or reasonably expected more and I consider what was done to be absolutely Stellar service.

    Here are right and left side views showing the new, solid pin:



    The scuff marks on the sight cannot be helped. Because the heat shield fits tightly on the sight, finish wear is unavoidable if it is removed and reinstalled even a few times. Besides, the marks cannot be seen when the handguard is mounted.


    Off to the range I went to find out if it worked. I took the HMG AMG along too to compare. I had to move the rear sight four clicks to the left and it's now zeroed. Schweet! I continue to fight with the front sight on the MCM because, as stated earlier, it's too small for my aging eyes although I'm sure it'll be just fine for the younger folks or those with better eyes than me. Because the HMG has a thicker sight, I tend to shoot it a little better. Apparently, different thickness front sights were supplied for original rifles. However, MCM has replaced the original sight with a new manufactured one and rethreaded the original sight base on their rifles so that a finer adjustment can be obtained and the sight can be adjusted more easily. Unfortunately for me, this change in threads means that I cannot simply switch out the skinny sight for a larger original one. I really wish they would offer a thicker sight.


    So, below are my targets at 100 yards using 40 rounds of American Eagle 55 grain FMJ. First up is the MCM. Please remember what I always say......I'm a poor shot. You will most likely get better results than I show because you are most likely a better shot than me so don't judge the rifle by my results!! The most important take away here is that it's now centered after MCM effected repairs:



    And the HMG:



    Here is the rear sight on the MCM after final adjustments:





    It's just a bit to the left but still perfectly within tolerance. I'm quite happy with the results.


    Something I would recommend to anyone with an HMG rifle is that, at a minimum, they replace at the original worn out recoil and buffer springs. Ideally, I would recommend that you replace all of the springs for the best reliability but definitely DO replace the recoil and buffer springs. If you do not, you run the risk of your rifle beating the stock and/or the receiver to death. Remember that picture I posted showing a huge bin of stocks headed off to the scrap man? That means original stocks aren't going to be around forever. So, if you want to keep that original stock as long as possible, switch out the springs with new ones available from MCM. Below are a couple pictures that show why I think you should do this.
    The first one shows the receiver on my MCM rifle after 60 rounds:

    I have placed black electrical tape where the casings bounce off the receiver upon ejection. Notice the absence of marks on the tape.


    Here we see the HMG receiver after 60 rounds:

    It bounces the casings off the receiver behind the ejection port. Notice how the tape is chewed up and pierced. Clearly, the HMG rifle is throwing them out much more violently. While the rifle is 100% reliable with good quality magazines with strong springs, the ejection pattern is wildly erratic compared to the MCM rifle and they are thrown much farther too. To me, it's obvious that the new MCM springs are much stronger than the originals in the HMG AMG. I don't know how much MCM is charging for the springs but I'm sure it's going to be a whole lot less than the price of a new receiver or an original stock. Of course, you can but a new made MCM stock too...….just buy some new springs, OK?

    Alrighty, on to conclusions.
    At this point, I have at least 400 rounds through the MCM. I say "at least" because, while I normally keep track of what I shoot and how many I shoot, I did not keep track of how many rounds we put through it the day I was at MCM and I also have no idea how many were put through it after a I left. To date, I'm aware of two stoppages, both failures to feed and both on the day I got it back.
    Thus far, I cannot say enough good things about either the HMG and MCM AMG. While I wouldn't particularly want to take either to war, I do love taking them to the range. Of all the 5.56 rifles I own (and that's quite a few) with the exception of the M249, felt recoil is least with the AMG. Yes, we're only talking about a little .22 rifle here but still, the AMG is at the top. Also, what minimal recoil there is, is essentially straight back because of the well thought out straight line configuration of the design. Neither AMG is a marksman's rifle but then it wasn't designed to be. You are always going to get the idiot asking "what will this rifle do that my craptastic AR won't do already?" Well, for one, it won't be an AR. But asking that silly question in the first place misses the point entirely. I can't speak for MCM and I can't speak for HMG but I can speak for myself and it seems to me that the point of a new made CETME L is, quite simply, to provide you with a Quality reproduction of a late cold war Spanish designed roller lock so that you can have fun at the range and own a piece of firearms History. The point is to build a rifle that is actually better than the original, one that brings a smile to your face and one that might spark a conversation at the range....which could lead to a new friend and new experiences. If I'm right and that is the point, both rifles have succeeded in my book.
    I really enjoy both of them and I look forward to many enjoyable and memorable range trips in the future. My advise is to buy at least one AMG. If you want one that is as close to all original as you can get and you don't mind or even like the worn in beat up look, buy the HMG but make sure you replace the springs. If you want a rifle that looks just like an original when it was brand new AND has the added bonus of being chocked full of research, engineering and materials far superior to that found in an original AND is backed up by a company that has customer service second to none, buy the MCM. Either way, buy a Cetme and let the good times roll...er lock! See you at the range; I'll be the guy with the cool, 80's looking, green Army Man Gun!
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    Today, I received a box of goodies from the good folks at MarColMar! They found a small quantity of first pattern handguards in Spain and managed to get them imported and up for sale on their website https://www.marcolmarfirearms.com/ . I've been wanting one of these for a long time but they have been impossible to find. A little History is in order.

    When the CETME L was first designed and produced in the early 1980's, certain features such as the rear sight and handguard were very similar to those found on the HK33/93. Very early on, perhaps even during the trials period, the rear sight was changed to the simpler and less expensive to produce flip sight. At some point, the handguard was redesigned too but I suspect that was done a little later than the rear sight change because many of the law enforcement rifles in Spain still have the first pattern handguard. Apparently, the first pattern did not dissipate heat well enough. After now having the first pattern in hand, I'd be willing to bet it was also more expensive to produce. Whatever the case, the military switched out all of their early handguards for the more heat efficient second model we see today and apparently scrapped the originals making them quite rare these days save for rifles issued to the Guardia Civil. Most of their L's still have the first pattern because they generally don't use their rifles much to begin with, let alone in a full-auto capacity, so melty handguards aren't an issue for them. The moral of this story is that it was believed that almost all of the first pattern jobbers were long gone......until MarColMar hit gold because they refused to give up the search. Yeah, it's just a handguard to many but, to me, it's a little bit of treasure. These have never been documented in detail until right now and I get to be the guy to do it. Let's take a look!


    Five examples of the original issue CETME L handguard :
    P1180291_zpsdcsknn53.jpg



    A closer look at them:
    P1180292_zps0unsmewx.jpg

    Notice the one on top is a different shade of green. If you look at the picture of a bunch in a box over the MCM's website, you'll see quite a palette of colors were produced.


    Left side view:
    P1180293_zps87syllae.jpg



    Right side:
    P1180294_zpsq2jmrmy3.jpg

    The little circle towards the rear is a rivet head.


    Bottom view showing more rivets:
    P1180295_zpskaaju6cp.jpg

    Notice that it was molded in left and right halves. That's not a mold seam running the length of the bottom but rather a line created where the two separate halves meet. At first this puzzled me. Why would you mold two "L" shaped halves instead of one unit that is "U" shaped?? Well, the answer revealed itself when trying to install and remove it from the rifle. You have to flex the handguard a little bit to install it and a lot to remove it. If it were one piece, it would crack lengthwise eventually. Molding it in two halves and riveting them to steel and aluminum subcomponents allows the entire assembly to flex without stressing the polymer. This complicated construction quite a bit but it's a clever solution.

    Top:
    P1180296_zpszlcykf0p.jpg

    Note the aluminum heat shield. It probably doesn't do much because it's essentially lying flat against the polymer it's meant to protect. If there is any airspace between the two, it's got to be very little.


    Front:
    P1180299_zpsn9q411z7.jpg



    Rear:
    P1180300_zpsdktaprnz.jpg

    Notice the various rivets and the small steel plate at the far rear for strengthening.


    A detail of the rear showing the strengthening plate and the round sheet metal mounting point that engages the front trunnion on the rifle:
    P1180301_zpsqscgxc8z.jpg

    When removing the handguard, this area flexes the most. I assume the round mounting point would crack eventually were it not for the strengthening plate taking some of the flex load.


    A front view of the rear mounting point:
    P1180302_zpskdulxrhx.jpg

    Note the clean stamping and rivet detail.


    Rear inside view of the nose cap showing how the heat shield disappears underneath it:
    P1180303_zps0m6z3ijp.jpg

    The fuzzy bits you see are stuck to cosmoline. None of the five a bought show evidence of ever having been mounted on a rifle.


    Nose cap detail:
    P1180304_zpskzac5pat.jpg

    Notice the sloppy black paint on the rivet head contrasting with the rough phosphate finish on the steel.


    Welds holding the front mounting point to the nose cap:
    P1180306_zpszp0x1czp.jpg



    One of the five also has what looks to be spot welds too:
    P1180307_zpszcv47x3e.jpg



    The nose cap with spot welds (shown on the right below) also has slightly different nose rivets:
    P1180309_zpsiemd1zjo.jpg

    They are more flat as opposed to the ones on the left being domed.


    Detail of a recessed rivet head on the right side of the handguard body:
    P1180310_zpsaa5zjue8.jpg

    Its painted with green paint.


    All of the rivets other than those on the nose cap are recessed and painted green:
    P1180311_zpsywx3ausv.jpg

    You can see where they slurged some paint out of the holes. No, "slurged" isn't a word you'll find in a dictionary but it's my word and now you know what it means. "Awwww man, you put too much jelly on the sandwich and it's slurging out the sides! What a mess!!"


    You can clearly see the slurgy paint job on this different shade of green handguard:
    P1180312_zpsrxpjnahu.jpg

    The green paint is the same shade on all five examples.


    Detail of a Quality paint job on the bottom nose cap rivets:
    P1180313_zpsgdmxne4h.jpg

    Meh, it's fine. Think of it as abstract art.


    The one that has spot welds in the nose cap and different rivets also has a shiny aluminum heat shield where the others have dull aluminum:
    P1180314_zps4vkefxmr.jpg

    I have to say it because somebody will ask if I don't....the shiny one is on top.


    Detail shot showing where the aluminum meets the polymer:
    P1180315_zpsgnfg24xe.jpg

    Again, this is not a very good design as there should be an air gap. I'm sure I'll never get it hot enough to matter though so hey, it's neato!


    To beat a dead horse on the heat issue, here we see the rear view of an HK33/93 handguard:
    P1180321_zps1kshle7h.jpg


    Compared to the CETME L:
    P1180322_zps01aqlpvo.jpg

    Notice how the heat shield on the HK is held off from the body by the rear mounting point creating an air gap between the two, especially along the bottom. In the CETME design, the shield is simply folded into a "U", dropped into place and the rear mounting point is then riveted in place actually sitting on top of the heatshield, sandwiching the shield between the mounting point and the polymer. Not only that but the CETME shield is actually riveted to the body of the handguard farther forward, pulling them tight together. I guess it's better than nothing but probably not by much. OK, we're done talking about hot stuff.
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    An interesting thing I noticed on the polymer parts of all five handguards is that there is absolutely NO molding differences among them. All five left sides are absolutely identical and all five right sides are absolutely identical. This means that only one mold was used. Let me show you:
    P1180323_zpsernhsqeu.jpg

    Although only two are shown here, the other three are identical. Look closely at the angled vertical line. Notice the little blob at about the midpoint where the single horizontal line intersects. That blob is identical on both handguards. Now look at 7 o'clock position from the blob. See the little tiny indent in the angled vertical that you might mistake for a scratch. Notice that mark is there on the other handguard. Farther up the angled vertical line is another similar little dent in exactly the same place on both handguards. I'm not going to insult you by pointing out each and every little indicator but keep comparing all the details between the two and you'll come to realize that both came out of the same mold. I find it astounding that you would mass produce something like this and only use ONE mold! Of course, a sample of five is not a good statistical set BUT......it is not unreasonable to infer that there was probably only one manufacturer making this part. That means color variation is due to polymer batches and not to different manufacturers.


    Here are two more pictures showing two different hand guards with absolutely identical mold details:
    P1180324_zps5j3e97k9.jpg


    P1180325_zpsyfd48hpk.jpg

    We're mainly focusing here on the little blob in the center of the pictures but compare the edges behind the strengthening plates and other minute details. Clearly, these came from the same mold. I know you probably couldn't care less but I think this stuff is neat!


    Although the same molds were used, I did find a slight difference and is was, once again on the handguard with the different nose cap and shiny heat shield. On that one, there is a a squared notch along the top towards the rear where it rests against the side of the receiver. On the other four, that notch is relieved and the contour is angled instead. They were molded that way, not ground so there must have been a change made to the mold at some point. This leads me to believe that the different handguard is earlier production than the other four. In the picture below, the different "earlier" one is depicted at the bottom:
    P1180333_zpsreovlhac.jpg




    Here are two first patterns compared to a second pattern:
    P1180326_zpsbfk7anrd.jpg

    Three handguards, three shades of green.


    Rear ends compared:
    P1180327_zpsoemwmy1s.jpg

    The second pattern exhibits better heat dissipation, is simpler in design from an overall manufacturing standpoint, is built of fewer parts and is much easier to install and remove from the rifle. However, the polymer part on the second pattern required a MUCH more sophisticated mold. To me, it's clear that the second pattern must have taken less time to assemble and cost less to produce too.


    Front ends compared:
    P1180328_zps1gamjb3u.jpg


    P1180330_zpsc98ntmak.jpg



    Top rear view:
    P1180331_zps49fytbll.jpg



    Gee, I wonder where Spain got their inspiration from?
    P1180332_zpsougj2kdq.jpg

    To be fair, both the HK33/93 and CETME L are of such similar mechanical design to begin with, it IS only logical that you might arrive at a similar form with regards to furniture design too.


    I've got more to post on this but it's dinner time and I'm hungry. I'll be back later.
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    So let's see what the first pattern actually looks like installed. This picture shows a MarColMar with one fitted and an HMG AMG with the second pattern:
    P1180340_zpspvlrxocz.jpg

    I'd like to show you a picture with one installed on the HMG rifle but, despite my trying all five handguards and spending a half hour doing it, I simply could not make one fit. No matter how much I fiddled with it, I couldn't get any of the handguards to slide far enough to the rear for the mounting pin holes to align with the corresponding hole through the front sight base. So while I can pretty much guarantee you that one of these will fit your MCM CETME L, I cant say the same about the HMG offering. Now, you can probably grind the rear mounting point on the handguard down until it fits but that's not something I'm willing to experiment with on an accessory that's made of near unobtainium. Your mileage may vary.


    Installed on a MCM rifle:
    P1180341_zps5mpoh5tc.jpg


    P1180344_zpsept1ohcz.jpg


    P1180345_zpsv4hnmp5a.jpg

    I should touch on what it takes to install one of these things on your rifle. The second pattern handguard is notoriously fiddly to install and remove and this one is no different. It's almost as if the Spanish didn't finalize the design and someone said "Good enough. I'm tired of messing with it." And of course, I have no literature telling me the proper way to install this on a rifle so my method was arrived at by experimentation. Having said that, take the following with a grain of salt. Here's what worked best for me.
    Installation.
    1. Hold handguard at a 45 degree angle to rifle with rear of handguard higher than front.
    2. Place rear of handguard over barrel. Slide to the rear while engaging rear mounting point with front of trunnion.
    3 Wrap hand around top of trunnion and bottom rear of handguard. While squeezing rear tightly, rotate front of handguard up and over front sight base while pushing entire assembly to the rear, thus lining up handguard mounting holes with hole in front sight base.
    4. Insert mounting pin until seated.

    Removal.
    1. Remove mounting pin.
    2. Rotate sling mounting ring up and out of the way.
    3. Pull handguard forward as far as it will go.
    4. Pull rear of handguard down until it is clear of trunnion. It will flex as it passes over the trunnion.
    5. Continue to rotate rear of handguard down while also pulling entire assembly down and to the rear until it pulls off the front sight base.

    While thee above sounds straight forward, you'll find it can be a fidgety process getting it up over the front sight base during assembly. It can also be a bear during installation getting it far enough to the rear for the pin holes to line up. In fact, I had to hold the rifle by the handguard and bump it on the floor several times to get it to seat properly. It helps if you're squeezing the rear tight onto the trunnion while doing this. It got easier after a few times on and off but it's still enough of a fight getting it on that I have no desire to remove it for a while. I think the main problem is getting the mounting ring to pop into the front of the trunnion. As I said, I never could get it fully seated on the HMG rifle. This just might be another reason the entire assembly was redesigned. Still, it WILL seat with a little work and I think it looks pretty nifty. Being that it's flat on the bottom, it should be pretty stable on a rest at the range too.

    These last photos just show details of how nicely it fits the contours on the MCM rifle:
    P1180346_zpsf1qd1xgb.jpg


    P1180347_zpsobc5iyfd.jpg

    Notice that the Cetakote on the rifle is an almost exact match with the original Spanish paint on the rivets. Nice!


    P1180350_zpsvw1rqwgw.jpg


    P1180352_zpsxo7j1hdw.jpg


    P1180353_zpsyfr76hyf.jpg

    The little angled feature on the handguard near the end of the charging slot is what we were previously comparing to the same feature only squared off on what I believe is an earlier version of the first pattern handguard.


    P1180354_zpsi5oi8uhv.jpg



    P1180355_zps5hrh3zuh.jpg



    This concludes the first ever detailed look at a first pattern handguard for the CETME L rifle. MarColMar discovered only a small number of these and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the one and only time these will ever be available in what is essentially new and unissued condition. I can tell you that, despite my best efforts, I've never been able to find one before in any condition beat up or otherwise so I was absolutely delighted to have the opportunity to get these pristine examples. They aren't cheap but MarColMar says they had to shell out quite a bit of dough to get them in the first place because the source in Spain knew what they had and how rare they are. In my opinion, if you have a CETME L for collecting purposes, you really need to buy one of these because this may well be the only time you ever see one for sale. Likewise, shooters will enjoy this model because the flat bottom will set very stable on a rest. So whether you are a shooter or a collector, this extremely rare first patter handguard is likely one of the nicest CETME L accessories you're going to find.
     
    Last edited:

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Well, they sure are not cheap! I will have to order one (maybe 2) for my guns! They are pretty cool. Thanks for posting. Anything else cool they got in?
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,212
    In a House
    They got some SUSAT scopes that look really nice but they're set up for the rail on the SA80. Apparently there are picatinny adapters available but I haven't looked seriously for one.
     

    bfoosh006

    Active Member
    Aug 19, 2017
    145
    Wow.... I am incredibly impressed by your info and posts.

    Thank You, very much, for your time and effort !!
     

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