Go Back   Maryland Shooters > Gun Rights and Legislation > National 2A Issues

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old May 10th, 2017, 07:48 AM #1
CrazySanMan's Avatar
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
CrazySanMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
Mass killings and mental health

This morning I read this article

China knife attack: 18 injured in mass stabbing, suspect shot and arrested

and was immediately drawn to this line:

Quote:
The police microblog cited family members as saying that the suspect, Wang Yunwei, had formerly been hospitalized for mental health issues.
It seems to me that a majority of mass killings are performed by people with mental health issues. You hear it time and time again. Here are a few results from a quick Google search:

36 School shooters/school related violence committed by those under the influence of psychiatric drugs

Every mass shooting over last 20 years has one thing in common... and it's not guns

Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings

Big list of drug-induced killers

Mass Murders, Psychiatric Drugs, And Gun Control

It's the Drugs, Stupid!

Mass Murderers and Psychiatric Drugs

Mental illness is a big problem in America, and a big part of the problem is the stigma associated with it. People today are not afraid to talk about STDs or high cholesterol, but don't want to talk about mental illness. This needs to change. We as gun owners need to be more proactive and let our lawmakers know over and over that it's the drugs, not the guns, that make normal people become mass murderers. The first article I linked about the mass stabbing in China shows that this isn't just an American issue, that worldwide in all cultures mental illness is the main motivating factor behind most mass killings. We need a better system for mental health issues in America, and we need to end the stigma associated with mental illness that prevents so many people from going to get treatment until it is too late.
__________________
If I put the U.S. Constitution in my emails, would the government finally start reading it?

NRA Lifetime Member
MSI, SAF Member
U.S. Navy Vet, Oath Keeper
CrazySanMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 08:03 AM #2
smokey0118's Avatar
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
smokey0118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr65/nvsr65_04.pdf
Mass killings are a statistical anomaly that account for a very small portion of preventable deaths each year. Even homicides(justified and otherwise) only make up a small fraction of deaths, at about 16,000 in 2014. Of those, 11,000 were by firearms. Compare that to preventable deaths due to mental illness....suicides (43,000), drugs (50,000), and alcohol (31,000) and mental healthcare suddenly becomes a very big deal. Of suicides, slightly less than half( 21,386 firearm vs 21,440) were done with firearms...so only focusing on firearms ignores the majority of suicide attempts while not addressing the human cause of the suicide.

I think it's important as well to be familiar with these numbers when someone talks about imposing government infringements on our 2A rights to curb "preventable deaths". If we target improving mental healthcare rather than targeting an inanimate object, we can have a direct positive impact on roughly 125,000 mental health related deaths EACH YEAR. It's also dangerous to attach the mental healthcare argument to firearms, because then we begin to get calls for the arbitrary stripping of 2A rights for anyone "with a mental condition". The term suddenly becomes nebulous enough to apply in an arbitrary and capricious manner without due process. So, remember to completely divorce the preventable death issue from firearms completely and redirect it to improving our mental healthcare in the nation... a push that everyone should easily be able to get behind... especially democrats that are constantly bringing up healthcare "as a human right".
__________________
MSI EXECUTIVE MEMBER:

"It's hard not to be a menace to society, when half the population is happy on their knees"

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
smokey0118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 08:25 AM #3
Drmsparks's Avatar
Drmsparks Drmsparks is offline
Old School Rifleman
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: PG county
Posts: 8,081
Images: 26
Drmsparks Drmsparks is offline
Old School Rifleman
Drmsparks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: PG county
Posts: 8,081
Images: 26
Also per the good series at Mother Jones.....less than 4% of the mentally ill are violent. 96% are not. Would you strip them of their rights just to catch the 4%?

People like the aurora shooter who were clearly identified and showed violent fantasy's before his crime should have been identified and removed. That is one place where we can make improvements.
__________________
"There is something special about the Garand: there is no other rifle quite like it. When you step up to the line with an M1 Garand, people will turn their heads and take notice. Strong men will respect you. Beautiful women will fall at your feet. The enemies of freedom will flee in dismay."
---Threeband

MSI EM --- NRA Endowment Member --- CMP Competitor --- NRA Expert HP Rifle
Drmsparks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 08:43 AM #4
CrazySanMan's Avatar
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
CrazySanMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
I'm not saying to strip the mentally ill of their 2A rights. I'm saying we need a campaign to convince the politicians that it's our mental health system in America that is responsible for mass killings, it's not the guns.
__________________
If I put the U.S. Constitution in my emails, would the government finally start reading it?

NRA Lifetime Member
MSI, SAF Member
U.S. Navy Vet, Oath Keeper
CrazySanMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 09:28 AM #5
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12,056
Biggfoot44 Biggfoot44 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 12,056
Mass killers are disproportionately bat shit crazy.

Bat Shit crazy people are prescribed various psycopharmalogical drugs more so than general population, or those with minor issues.

But which are cause, and which symptoms?
Biggfoot44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 09:34 AM #6
teratos's Avatar
teratos teratos is offline
My hair is amazing
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bel Air
Posts: 21,663
teratos teratos is offline
My hair is amazing
teratos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Bel Air
Posts: 21,663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Biggfoot44 View Post
Mass killers are disproportionately bat shit crazy.

Bat Shit crazy people are prescribed various psycopharmalogical drugs more so than general population, or those with minor issues.

But which are cause, and which symptoms?


It's the mental illness, not the treatment.


Our mental health system sucks. Good luck finding anything resembling adequate treatment if you need it.
__________________
MSI Executive Member
NRA Life Member
SAF Life Member
teratos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 09:44 AM #7
Rab1515 Rab1515 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: st. mary's county
Posts: 599
Rab1515 Rab1515 is online now
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: st. mary's county
Posts: 599
And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.
Rab1515 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 09:56 AM #8
KJackson KJackson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 42
KJackson KJackson is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Carroll County
Posts: 42
My wife is one of those who could lose her 2A rights due to having been treated for metal issues. What was her issue that makes her so dangerous if she were to have a gun? She has been treated, in-patient, a few times for Anorexia and Bulimia. That is classified as a mental disorder and she was treated in the psych ward of Mercy Hospital. In all the news that I have read, I don't think that I have ever heard of an eating disorder patient going on a shooting rampage.
KJackson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 10:06 AM #9
CrazySanMan's Avatar
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
CrazySanMan CrazySanMan is offline
2013'er
CrazySanMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Mile High Ravens Fan
Posts: 4,462
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rab1515 View Post
And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.
This.

Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.
__________________
If I put the U.S. Constitution in my emails, would the government finally start reading it?

NRA Lifetime Member
MSI, SAF Member
U.S. Navy Vet, Oath Keeper
CrazySanMan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 11:12 AM #10
alucard0822's Avatar
alucard0822 alucard0822 is offline
For great Justice
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 12,921
Images: 11
alucard0822 alucard0822 is offline
For great Justice
alucard0822's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: PA
Posts: 12,921
Images: 11
Mental health in this country is not quite a generation from jamming ice picks in eyesockets and inducing seizures and comas with little if any proof it actually helped. Ethical treatment is in it's infancy, and the public stigma is horrific, until that changes, society will suffer the symptoms of unchecked mental illness. In many cases merely seeking treatment is not all that different from walking into a police station and confessing to a crime, people can loose their rights, their freedom, jobs, families, finances and much more, so it's not surprising that people will avoid treatment until something terrible happens. People are willing to walk, run, and dump ice water on themselves to raise awareness and money for "honorable" diseases, and those who suffer from them, but people with most common mental problems like addiction, depression etc, are seen as anything from weak to contemptible, not normal people suffering from a preventable and treatable disease.
__________________
"Unfortunately, freedom allows sh*theads to get away with stuff. You always know the mark of a coward. A coward hides behind freedom. A brave person stands in front of freedom and defends it for others."
-Henry Rollins
alucard0822 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 12:29 PM #11
smokey0118's Avatar
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
smokey0118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
Mental health in this country is not quite a generation from jamming ice picks in eyesockets and inducing seizures and comas with little if any proof it actually helped. Ethical treatment is in it's infancy, and the public stigma is horrific, until that changes, society will suffer the symptoms of unchecked mental illness. In many cases merely seeking treatment is not all that different from walking into a police station and confessing to a crime, people can loose their rights, their freedom, jobs, families, finances and much more, so it's not surprising that people will avoid treatment until something terrible happens. People are willing to walk, run, and dump ice water on themselves to raise awareness and money for "honorable" diseases, and those who suffer from them, but people with most common mental problems like addiction, depression etc, are seen as anything from weak to contemptible, not normal people suffering from a preventable and treatable disease.
Yup
__________________
MSI EXECUTIVE MEMBER:

"It's hard not to be a menace to society, when half the population is happy on their knees"

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
smokey0118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 12:41 PM #12
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,071
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rab1515 View Post
And the current way MD treats mental health encourages gun owners not to seek treatment.
Mental health issues are stigmatised in many ways, and in populations other than firearms ownership.

Those who require an FAA physical, for example - which encompasses most pilots to one degree or another, airline types needing medical recertification every six months - are loath to seek a physician's care, or to take antidepressant drugs, which would perforce have to be revealed at that time. Workarounds for pilots experiencing difficulties in their personal lives involve seeking help from religious counselors, rather than revealing issues to a physician, which would have to be reported, possibly resulting in losing their livelihood.

Until problems resulting from brain physiology can be treated without labeling the patient as a pariah, this issue is not going away.
__________________
"If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." - Lawrence Ferlinghetti

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” - Philip K. Dick
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 01:55 PM #13
teawhy's Avatar
teawhy teawhy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 45
teawhy teawhy is offline
Junior Member
teawhy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Southern Maryland
Posts: 45
This is an important topic that deserves attention. My first thought is will those who suffer from mental illness ever receive real, effective care with large pharmaceutical companies being such a central part of modern medicine, and politics for that matter? I'll have to do more research, but I bet there is a correlation between big pharma political contributions, drug sales, and the aforementioned acts of violence. Thanks, CrazySanMan, for a good starting point.
teawhy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 02:32 PM #14
DaemonAssassin's Avatar
DaemonAssassin DaemonAssassin is offline
Insane in the mainframe
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fredneck County, People's Democratic Republic of the State of Maryland
Posts: 18,626
Images: 1
DaemonAssassin DaemonAssassin is offline
Insane in the mainframe
DaemonAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fredneck County, People's Democratic Republic of the State of Maryland
Posts: 18,626
Images: 1
The true problem, once you start looking at mental health issues, is where the line is drawn. I know people with bipolar 2 that I wouldn't trust with a piece of paper, let alone a firearm. But of the same token, I know people with bipolar 2 that are normal and are not affected by the bipolar, due to taking meds and staying on top of things. Where do you draw that line? You can't strip somebody's rights on the basis of mental health, if they have no violent tendencies, or haven't gone through due process.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by armed ferret View Post
If ignorance is bliss, some folks are just plain orgasmic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoostation View Post
Like cherry blossoms in spring

Ban hammer falls and makes all better
Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Moses Browning, Reformed (M1911A1)

SOTAR FTW!

Admitted H&K fan boy
NRA-Life
MDC

DaemonAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 03:10 PM #15
smokey0118's Avatar
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
smokey0118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaemonAssassin View Post
The true problem, once you start looking at mental health issues, is where the line is drawn. I know people with bipolar 2 that I wouldn't trust with a piece of paper, let alone a firearm. But of the same token, I know people with bipolar 2 that are normal and are not affected by the bipolar, due to taking meds and staying on top of things. Where do you draw that line? You can't strip somebody's rights on the basis of mental health, if they have no violent tendencies, or haven't gone through due process.
Where do you draw it for anyone? Other demographics have a disproportionately high rate of committing violent crimes. If you're 18 and hanging out with a bunch of gang members, but haven't committed a crime yet, do you lose your rights for what people think you're likely to do?
__________________
MSI EXECUTIVE MEMBER:

"It's hard not to be a menace to society, when half the population is happy on their knees"

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
smokey0118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 03:35 PM #16
DaemonAssassin's Avatar
DaemonAssassin DaemonAssassin is offline
Insane in the mainframe
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fredneck County, People's Democratic Republic of the State of Maryland
Posts: 18,626
Images: 1
DaemonAssassin DaemonAssassin is offline
Insane in the mainframe
DaemonAssassin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Fredneck County, People's Democratic Republic of the State of Maryland
Posts: 18,626
Images: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by smokey0118 View Post
Where do you draw it for anyone? Other demographics have a disproportionately high rate of committing violent crimes. If you're 18 and hanging out with a bunch of gang members, but haven't committed a crime yet, do you lose your rights for what people think you're likely to do?
I'm pretty sure we are on the same page with the examples we have used.

You are right, where is that line in the sand?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by armed ferret View Post
If ignorance is bliss, some folks are just plain orgasmic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoostation View Post
Like cherry blossoms in spring

Ban hammer falls and makes all better
Member of the 1st Universal Church of St. John Moses Browning, Reformed (M1911A1)

SOTAR FTW!

Admitted H&K fan boy
NRA-Life
MDC

DaemonAssassin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 03:51 PM #17
20ravens52's Avatar
20ravens52 20ravens52 is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Baltimore County
Posts: 87
20ravens52 20ravens52 is offline
Junior Member
20ravens52's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Baltimore County
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySanMan View Post
This.

Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.
Sorry to hear that man, sounds like a rough situation. Hope everything works out okay for him.
20ravens52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 03:59 PM #18
smokey0118's Avatar
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
smokey0118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaemonAssassin View Post
I'm pretty sure we are on the same page with the examples we have used.

You are right, where is that line in the sand?
Yup, I believe we are. Tone doesn't transfer well in writing. I meant to expand on your points a bit.
__________________
MSI EXECUTIVE MEMBER:

"It's hard not to be a menace to society, when half the population is happy on their knees"

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
smokey0118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2017, 04:02 PM #19
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,071
Bob A Bob A is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 7,071
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazySanMan View Post
This.

Mental health is a touchy subject for me as my 15 year old son recently approached my wife and I and told us he was having a lot of problems with wild emotional cycles, feeling paranoid, and even hearing voices. My first instinct was to tell him not to tell anyone else because I didn't want to do anything that might jeopardize his ability to own firearms later on in life. But I know that getting him whatever help he needs is more important and that he possibly could end up committing a violent crime one day if I tried to sweep it all under the rug and deny him the treatment he needs.

He starts an outpatient program tonight that goes for 18 sessions. I pay $180 per week for insurance, and I still have to pay $200 per session for this. If we reach his deductible (which we won't because it's jacked sky-high) we would still have to pay 40% of the $200 per session. It would be much cheaper if he qualified for one of the inpatient programs and we committed him.

We need better systems to treat people with mental illness so they can lead normal lives and we need to end the social stigmas that surround mental illness so people will not be embarrassed and try to hide their conditions instead of getting help.

The fact that your son knew he was having problems, and was willing and able to present them to you and seek help, is a good indicator of a positive outcome. Not to say it will be a walk in the park, however.
__________________
"If you're too open-minded, your brains will fall out." - Lawrence Ferlinghetti

“Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away.” - Philip K. Dick
Bob A is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 01:28 PM #20
smokey0118's Avatar
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
smokey0118 smokey0118 is online now
2A TEACHER
smokey0118's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Annapolis
Posts: 20,550
Images: 33
bump for an important topic

__________________
MSI EXECUTIVE MEMBER:

"It's hard not to be a menace to society, when half the population is happy on their knees"

Is minic a gheibhean beal oscailt diog dunta!
smokey0118 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > Gun Rights and Legislation > National 2A Issues


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2016, Maryland Shooters, LLC