Recommended self-defense ammo for .40s&w

coolfrmn · Nov 27, 2010

Let me preface my question with a little background on me.
I've owned a Glock 23 (mid size .40) since 1997 for self & home defense. I've read plenty about self defense ammo. Most of my opinion comes from reading the Glock Annual in relation to what Police agencies use for duty ammunition. With that being said, I've been using 165 or 180 gr. Federal Hydro-shok. I'm under the impression that bigger the grain = slower the bullet = no over penatration. I've read here recently that the slower bullets aren't opening like they should which could result in over penatration. I obviously don't have a legal need to shoot through car windows & doors like law enforcement. So, here's the question.

What grain & brand hollow point does you /your agency use? I'm I correct in my understanding now, that faster the bullet = better expansion & stopping power & less likely no over penatration?

What I want is stopping power with NO over penatration.

B1web · Nov 27, 2010

Slightly dated but a good article here:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm

ThawMyTongue · Nov 27, 2010

Welcome to the search for the so called 'golden bullet'.

You need a quality round that is going to expand reliably and one you can shoot accurately. Overpenetration will always be a concern no matter what ammo or caliber you use. Shot placement and target identification are should be more important issues.

Speer Gold Dots are my go to rounds in 40 S&W 165grain and 357SIG 125grain.

30ought6 · Nov 27, 2010

My carry ammo: .45 ACP with 230 gr. JHP

coolfrmn · Nov 27, 2010

So far so good fellas, thanks. Keep them comming. Thanks B1web. I read that article this morning.
I've read Massad Ayoob's, In The Gravest Extreme, Watched the videos by www.armedcitizensnetwork.org on The Judicious Use of Deadly Force & Shoot To Live interview with Massad Ayoob. I took a Tactical Handgun class by www.ccjatraining.com. I've also taken CHP classes here in VA & SC. So, I have a good understanding of the where, when & legalities to carry & use. ( As much as one can not being a LEO or lawyer) I understand identify your target & what's behind it.
I just want to remove as many variables as possible when Poo hits the fan.

joppaj · Nov 27, 2010

My Dept uses 165gr Speer Gold Dots. Of the two people that I've known to be shot by us, both were killed but more importantly both were stopped RAPIDLY. The bullets appear to have expanded quite well out of a G22.

swinokur · Nov 27, 2010

180g Federal HST or Speer Gold dot

ThawMyTongue · Nov 27, 2010

joppaj said:
My Dept uses 165gr Speer Gold Dots. Of the two people that I've known to be shot by us, both were killed but more importantly both were stopped RAPIDLY. The bullets appear to have expanded quite well out of a G22.

I don't know why this made me laugh out loud... just not a phrase you hear everyday

(today is also my birthday and I might be drinking :innocent0

)

DocPeanut · Nov 27, 2010

I carry Winchester Ranger T series, 180 grain in my glock 23

joppaj · Nov 27, 2010

ThawMyTongue said:
I don't know why this made me laugh out loud... just not a phrase you hear everyday

(today is also my birthday and I might be drinking )

Does kind of roll off the tongue at an odd angle, doesn't it? I've never used two words when six would suffice.

Goldengoose · Nov 27, 2010

joppaj said:
My Dept uses 165gr Speer Gold Dots. Of the two people that I've known to be shot by us, both were killed but more importantly both were stopped RAPIDLY. The bullets appear to have expanded quite well out of a G22.

Can't get any better recommendation that 2 for 2 and sure stopping power!!! That's 100% in my book!!! :thumbsup:

K-Romulus · Nov 27, 2010

I like the Federal Tactical Bonded 165gr. (stock # LE403T)

Here is some good reading on duty/self defense pistol loads

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

More reading on ballistics:
http://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=91

Phoenix_1295 · Nov 27, 2010

Speer Gold Dot 165gr

annihilation-time · Nov 27, 2010

I like Speed Gloss Dots 180 grain or Winchester PDX1 180 grain.

alucard0822 · Nov 28, 2010

40S&W is somewhat limited in case capacity, and as a result in many loads there is a relatively large reduction in performance between a 165gr and 180gr load, where 165gr tends to not nly have more energy as can be expected as a lighter/faster load, but it also often times has more momentum, whuch is a more important factor, this aids hard cover and soft target penetration, usually making 165gr the ideal heavy load for the caliber, even if only slightly. Out of a 4" barrel, most premium expanding ammo will perform well, Hornady TAP, Gold dots, fed HSTs, golden Sabres and Win PDX1/Ranger bondeds are all proven loads. The issue of "overpenetration" is largely eggagerated in my opinion, and the opinion of many defensive "experts". Statistics show you are more likely to miss than hit in a shooting (thus rendering "over-penetration through a target moot), and that a round must penetrate sufficiently in order to stop a threat, and make subsequent shots, each with a distinct possibility of missing the target un-neccesary. An effective round that penetrates sufficiently, resists fragmentation, resists damage from hard and soft cover, and expands as much as possible is an ideal defensive load, of which there are several proven in the caliber. Personally, my bedstand 40S&W pistol is loaded with 165gr Federal HSTs.

Baccusboy · Nov 28, 2010

You should look at tnoutdoors9 videos and also andreleger2001 videos on Youtube. Although I like the Speer gold dot in .45, I don't like it in .40 cal because it has troubles with denim clogging, causing far too much penetration:

I am more of a fan of the Winchester Ranger-T in .40 cal, myself:

Here is an overview of many .40 cal bullets fired, and how they expanded in water. If you dig around, you'll find more examples of some top bullets and how they reacted with denim. If memory serves, the Federal HST round seems to open well in about every circumstance, even with denim:

I should add that if you're looking for a bullet that just opens every time, look at the Hornady Critical Defense rounds.

Minuteman · Nov 28, 2010

You certainly asked the right question at the right place, and I think you got the right answer.

Bullet selection has always been pretty low on my priorities regarding a defensive handgun. Until so many police agencies adopted the 40, and ammo prices dropped, I typically argued against the entire caliber. But now it's probably the ideal caliber, and any good expanding round with sufficient penetration should do. Just try to train with the same round you carry.

I applaud your taking the time to get training, and listing your references.

coolfrmn · Nov 28, 2010

THANKS EVERYONE!!! Some cool vids and great info!!! More food for thought, if you will.

@Minuteman.. Thanks, I just wanted to explain that I wasn't new to the scene & where I was getting my knowledge. It seems the older I get, the more I'm delving deaper into legalities & technical info. I guess having kids will do that. Protecting them & wife will be a hollow victory if I don't follow through with everything else & land in prison for a myriad of reasons or loose a civil suit. i.e. over penatration hitting a bystander, missing & hitting a bystander, misshandling the aftermath investigation, etc.

The ammo issue really sprang up when I recently read that the old ammo technology, Fed hydro-shok / Winchester ranger - black talons- sxt / etc. seems to be underperforming. Especially the Fed Hydro-shok, not expanding properly through winter clothes. Which can be a concern here in VA for a couple months, I never worried about it when I lived on the southern coastal tip of SC.

I normally train with the cheap stuff, UMC. Then at least twice a year, I shoot through my defensive loads & buy new.

All good stuff here!!!!

coolfrmn · Nov 28, 2010

Federal HST .40 S&W 135 gr Test with Denim

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HALCn1czp4s

Minuteman · Nov 28, 2010

coolfrmn, you are good. Thinking about the consequences and legal aftermath of even a 'successful' self-defense scenario is extremely important.

About a decade ago, I was fortunate enough to attend the Street Survival Seminar for free. They had an optional additional day of training where they focused on the psychological, legal, social aftermath of a lethal encounter. They highly encouraged/recommended that officers wives attend to help them better understand what their LEO spouse encounters and to help them through such an event. I concur, and if you can attend this training, it is money well spent.

Watch the video in this article about the course, the entire course is a series of lectures with audio, video and live demos of the latest techniques and imperatives to increase your chance to stay alive.

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/1999708-30-Years-of-the-Street-Survival-Seminar

Recommended self-defense ammo for .40s&w

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