Russian Issued French M1874 Gras Rifle

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  • MilsurpDan

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2012
    2,217
    Frederick County
    I really didn't want to buy anything, but I sold a couple items while I was working at the Chantilly show yesterday so I figured I could grab something I needed while I was there. I've been on the hunt for one of these for a long time now.

    During World War One, the Russian Empire was in huge demand for rifles while the Germans, Austro-Hungarians and Turks were giving them a beat down. The other members of the Allied Powers, namely France, Italy, Japan (etc.) sent them large quantities of obsolete weapons in order to keep them in the fight. France sent the Russians thousands of M1874 Gras rifles which were issued and used among a ton of other models including Arisakas, Kropatschek, Vetterlis and anything else they could get their hands on. The Gras is a single-shot, bolt-action rifle chambered in an 11x59r cartridge that the French issued before the adoption of the M1886 Lebel rifle.

    A couple decades later, after the Communists took over in Russia, the Spanish Civil War was raging on. The Commies in Spain were in desperate need for weapons as well, and the Russians were happy to oblige. Thousands of obsolete and modern weapons were sent to the Spanish Communists which were issued and used during the SCW. In the 1950's/60's after Franco beat the Spanish Commies into submission, Sam Cummings of Interarms bought Spain's inventory of surplus weaponry. Which is how this particular rifle ended up in the U.S.

    The quick way to find one of these rifles, along with the Vetterli-Vitali or other rifles, is to look for the "Made In France" marking on the barrel behind the rear sight. There is also usually a Cyrillic "II" Russian Inspection marking on the flat of the receiver and the wrist of the stock, all of which this rifle has evident.

    This particular rifle was made in 1873, so I'm not sure if it was purpose built as a M1874 Gras rifle, or was converted from a M1866 Chasspot Needle-Gun.

    It's not very pretty, and it isn't matching, but heck, what would you expect from a rifle that probably saw continuous service over 66 years and numerous conflicts?
     

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    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    Looks like it had a tough and adventurous life, but survived largely intact... possibly original finish?

    Did Interarms stamp the "Made in France" when they imported it?
     

    MilsurpDan

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2012
    2,217
    Frederick County
    Looks like it had a tough and adventurous life, but survived largely intact... possibly original finish?

    Did Interarms stamp the "Made in France" when they imported it?

    Not sure if it’s the original finish, but it looks to be the same that’s on my M1886 Lebel and my Mle 1892 revolver. It’s probably been through a rebuild or two when it was in French service.

    Yes, apparently Interarms stamped the “Made in France” on there when they came in. Not sure why they did that, unless the country of origin was a requirement for them to come in
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,232
    Carroll County
    Must have started out as a Chassepot. Amazing chunk of history.

    Somehow, just looking at the trigger, I sense it must have a terrible 14 pound trigger pul. Am I far off?
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    Not sure if it’s the original finish, but it looks to be the same that’s on my M1886 Lebel and my Mle 1892 revolver. It’s probably been through a rebuild or two when it was in French service.

    Yes, apparently Interarms stamped the “Made in France” on there when they came in. Not sure why they did that, unless the country of origin was a requirement for them to come in

    The Tariff Act of 1930 requires it and is still in force, though I believe the McKinley Tariff Act of 1890 already required it prior.
     

    MilsurpDan

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2012
    2,217
    Frederick County
    Thanks guys! I’m glad my posts are appreciated. I enjoy writing about the stuff as much as I do holding and looking at them.


    Must have started out as a Chassepot. Amazing chunk of history.

    Somehow, just looking at the trigger, I sense it must have a terrible 14 pound trigger pul. Am I far off?

    You got that right. The trigger pull is horrendous. Out of the other Black Powder cartridge rifles I have, this one is easily the worst. Even worse than my 200 year old Swiss Muskets. My M1884 Trapdoor Springfield has the best, coupled with the Buffington sight, it makes for a very fun, accurate shooter.
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Awesome post, thank you for sharing!

    Kinda horrified my great-grandfathers might have had to rush German machine guns with these...

    Did WW1 and later usage issue a compatible smokeless load for these or did they keep on making black powder rounds?

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk
     

    ken792

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 2, 2011
    4,480
    Fairfax, VA
    Awesome post, thank you for sharing!

    Kinda horrified my great-grandfathers might have had to rush German machine guns with these...

    Did WW1 and later usage issue a compatible smokeless load for these or did they keep on making black powder rounds?

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk

    They were meant to be issued out to non frontline troops that weren't likely to have to fire their rifles, but needed a weapon anyway.

    They were issued with old stocks of ammo if in the original calibers. I don't believe the French restarted production for rifle use. They did make the caliber with incendiary bullets for use in Hotchkiss or Vickers machine guns for shooting down balloons. The Germans did attempt to develop a smokeless version of the 11mm Mauser prior to WWI, but I don't believe it was adopted for service. The French did convert some Gras rifles to 8mm Lebel and the Italians converted some Vetterlis to 6.5 Carcano to allow them to use the standard ammo, though they were still not meant for repeated firing.

     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,232
    Carroll County
    Awesome post, thank you for sharing!

    Kinda horrified my great-grandfathers might have had to rush German machine guns with these...

    Did WW1 and later usage issue a compatible smokeless load for these or did they keep on making black powder rounds?

    "The man with the rifle shoots..."
     

    MilsurpDan

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2012
    2,217
    Frederick County
    Just confirmed that it is in fact actually an Mle.1866-74 Chasspot conversion instead of the regular factory built Mle.1874. I know the rifle says it's an Mle.1866-74 on the receiver, but I originally didn't know if they had just marked them that way. Even cooler history! Heck of a service life it had, being converted from a Needle-Gun and being used for so long.


    Awesome post, thank you for sharing!

    Kinda horrified my great-grandfathers might have had to rush German machine guns with these...

    Did WW1 and later usage issue a compatible smokeless load for these or did they keep on making black powder rounds?

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk

    I'm not 100% sure, but I think I remember seeing an older post on Gunboards that said during the war there were some smokeless 11x59r rounds made, except they were for some kind of machine gun and for "balloon buster" guns. They weren't issued to the standard infantry who were issued the rifles. I can only imagine how much that would've sucked to have been to be a Russian soldier in WWI.

    Edit: Looks like Ken already explained it
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Wanted to get into it, did a little research. Found a resource here - http://www.grwar.ru/library/Manikovsky/MS_006.html - that was excellent. This is an analysis of Russian WW1 rifle production as a whole, if you search for the word "Гра" (Gras in Russian) you'll see a table where the 450K number of total French single shot rifles sent to the Russians during that war is provided.

    Incidentally, that source (analysis written in 1937 describing why the Russian army was so deficient of rifles during the whole war) also talks about why US factories, despite their enormous industrial potential, were unable to produce enough 3-line rifles to meet their orders. The story of inept Czarist arms commissioners that held up production is mentioned here, but also the "templated" style of US factory production is called out. The Russians did not understand production outside of skilled craftsmanship, so did not prepare the drawings, molds, tooling or anything else a high volume line of production equipment needs.

    The conclusion and lessons learned of that piece stated the need to basically copy the US mass production process for the Mosin 38. The factories that adopted that process, when moved, won the following war.

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    Cool find! I've read documentation that listed Lebels and Berthiers as being sent to Spain as well but I've never seen one export marked. Just assumed that MN M91/30s, M91s and Polish Mausers were the only items exported to the US. I'm sure there are plenty of Mosin lovers here on MDS who have SCW examples with the "Made in USSR" mark. Those aren't difficult to find, unlike this Gras.
    Here's a good online article on SCW small arms.
     

    MilsurpDan

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 1, 2012
    2,217
    Frederick County
    Cool find! I've read documentation that listed Lebels and Berthiers as being sent to Spain as well but I've never seen one export marked. Just assumed that MN M91/30s, M91s and Polish Mausers were the only items exported to the US. I'm sure there are plenty of Mosin lovers here on MDS who have SCW examples with the "Made in USSR" mark. Those aren't difficult to find, unlike this Gras.
    Here's a good online article on SCW small arms.

    The SCW has always interested me, but this is my first rifle that was used in the conflict. I’ve always overlooked it since I’m more interested in collecting WW1/WW2 related stuff. I may just get into it later on.

    I’d really love to find one of the French Navy Kropatscheks that were sent to Russian then Spain along with the Gras and other rifles. The Kropatscheks are definitely the rarest of the batch to find.

    I guess I’ll have to start loading for the 11x60r Gras cartridge now. I actually bought a set of custom made reloading dies for it in a group buy that a guy on Gunboards had set up. I think I’ll have to make the cases out of .50-110 brass. Should be a fun endeavor.
     

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