Help me understand legality of custom AR pistol?

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  • Omega21

    Active Member
    Nov 27, 2010
    514
    Traveling MD
    I want to buy a custom built AR-15 pistol in .45ACP. I can order the gun as a carbine, and that's legal in MD, but I prefer it as a pistol. The AR will be built on a Spartan lower. Spartan isn't even listed as a manufacturer on the MD Handgun Roster. So I think that means I can't order this gun in pistol format, only as a carbine. Am I missing something?
    Thanks for the help!
     

    Melnic

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    15,282
    HoCo
    Specifically can you buy just the upper you want?

    If you buy a stripped lower then you don’t need anything on the roster. You don’t need HQL either.
    Get lower from a local shop. Then order a pistol lower parts kit , maybe a good trigger. If you never built a lower just post your location and I’m sure plenty out there will help you. Building up a lower does. It take much time at all.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
    Last edited:

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    I want to buy a custom built AR-15 pistol in .45ACP. I can order the gun as a carbine, and that's legal in MD, but I prefer it as a pistol. The AR will be built on a Spartan lower. Spartan isn't even listed as a manufacturer on the MD Handgun Roster. So I think that means I can't order this gun in pistol format, only as a carbine. Am I missing something?
    Thanks for the help!

    If you buy a complete carbine, you can not covert it into a pistol.

    Buy a stripped lower and an a finished upper of your choosing, then finish the lower yourself as a pistol. That's the best, legal rout to go.
     

    Omega21

    Active Member
    Nov 27, 2010
    514
    Traveling MD
    If you buy a complete carbine, you can not covert it into a pistol.

    Buy a stripped lower and an a finished upper of your choosing, then finish the lower yourself as a pistol. That's the best, legal rout to go.

    Good to know about carbine to pistol rule. Looks like I'm buying a carbine then, because I don't have time nor the desire to build this myself. I want a complete package from this custom builder, and it seems if I want a pistol, all I can do is order his stripped lower and complete upper and build it myself - which seems ridiculous - thanks Frosh!
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Good to know about carbine to pistol rule. Looks like I'm buying a carbine then, because I don't have time nor the desire to build this myself. I want a complete package from this custom builder, and it seems if I want a pistol, all I can do is order his stripped lower and complete upper and build it myself - which seems ridiculous - thanks Frosh!
    To be clear, neither a rifle nor carbine can be converted to a pistol. An AR pistol has to start out as a pistol. It can then be changed to a rifle or carbine if need be, then back to a pistol if so desired.

    The rule is, no long gun can be converted into a pistol if it was purchased as a long gun. I'm not sure if that is a Md statute or a federal statute. It can be SBR'd though.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk
     

    Omega21

    Active Member
    Nov 27, 2010
    514
    Traveling MD
    To be clear, neither a rifle nor carbine can be converted to a pistol. An AR pistol has to start out as a pistol. It can then be changed to a rifle or carbine if need be, then back to a pistol if so desired.

    The rule is, no long gun can be converted into a pistol if it was purchased as a long gun. I'm not sure if that is a Md statute or a federal statute. It can be SBR'd though.

    Thank you Outrider - that is the rout I'm going to take. Appreciate everyone's input.
     

    CrazySanMan

    2013'er
    Mar 4, 2013
    11,390
    Colorful Colorado
    When you purchase the lower do you need it to be specified as a handgun on the 4473? I have several stripped lowers and wanted to make one a pistol but the 4473's all say long gun so I wasn't sure if I could use them for pistols. :shrug:
     

    jonnyl

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 23, 2009
    5,969
    Frederick
    Frosh and Maryland do suck, but the rule against turning a rifle into a pistol is Federal. Builds can be fun, but they do usually take longer if you're particular on components. Good luck!
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    To be clear, neither a rifle nor carbine can be converted to a pistol. An AR pistol has to start out as a pistol. It can then be changed to a rifle or carbine if need be, then back to a pistol if so desired.

    The rule is, no long gun can be converted into a pistol if it was purchased as a long gun. I'm not sure if that is a Md statute or a federal statute. It can be SBR'd though.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

    Federal
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    When you purchase the lower do you need it to be specified as a handgun on the 4473? I have several stripped lowers and wanted to make one a pistol but the 4473's all say long gun so I wasn't sure if I could use them for pistols. :shrug:

    Per federal law and ATF, if they are listed as rifle on the 4473, then they can only be built into a rifle.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    When you purchase the lower do you need it to be specified as a handgun on the 4473? I have several stripped lowers and wanted to make one a pistol but the 4473's all say long gun so I wasn't sure if I could use them for pistols. :shrug:

    Per federal law and ATF, if they are listed as rifle on the 4473, then they can only be built into a rifle.

    My question would be why were these stripped lower classified as anything but "Other"? They should not be listed as a long gun or a pistol. Since they are only lower receivers, and have not been built yet, how can they be classified as anything but "Other"?

    FFL screwed up royally, in my opinion.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,158

    This rule also applies to Thompson Center Contenders and Encores. Always buy them in a pistol configuration then you can convert to a rifle and back to a pistol. And never put a pistol length barrel on when the shoulder stock is attached or you just made an SBR.
     

    NateIU10

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 6, 2009
    4,587
    Southport, CT
    Per federal law and ATF, if they are listed as rifle on the 4473, then they can only be built into a rifle.

    Where? I have never seen anything from ATF that says a paperwork error on behalf of a licensee actually makes a firearm a different "type." The licensee made a, technically unlawful, error on the 4473, he didn't make the firearm meet the federal definition of "Rifle."
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    Where? I have never seen anything from ATF that says a paperwork error on behalf of a licensee actually makes a firearm a different "type." The licensee made a, technically unlawful, error on the 4473, he didn't make the firearm meet the federal definition of "Rifle."

    There are a lot of things that don't meet the federal definitions (just look at Maryland's definition of handgun).

    There is also nothing in federal law that says said error doesn't make a firearm an actual type, but I believe this has been answered by ATF, that any receiver, if not marked "other" on the 4473, is what it was marked as (in this case - rifle) and can only be built into what it was designated on the 4473.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    49,818
    Where? I have never seen anything from ATF that says a paperwork error on behalf of a licensee actually makes a firearm a different "type." The licensee made a, technically unlawful, error on the 4473, he didn't make the firearm meet the federal definition of "Rifle."

    Having said that, where do we go from here? Is there a process for having that changed in Crazy SM's case?

    Should he ignore the 'error' and build a pistol, then later, have a situation where he needs to explain things, I'm not seeing a good outcome for him.
     

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,087
    Having said that, where do we go from here? Is there a process for having that changed in Crazy SM's case?

    Should he ignore the 'error' and build a pistol, then later, have a situation where he needs to explain things, I'm not seeing a good outcome for him.

    There is no process to change it per ATF, and the customer should have caught the error before he signed the 4473. As for building a lower into a pistol, when the receiver was sold as a rifle...That would be no bueno.
     

    DSBartender

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 12, 2016
    250
    Waldorf
    So basically all 4473’s for lowers should be filled out as “other” regardless of intention just to be safe. Should I decide to exercise free will and change my mind about a build I’ll be covered.


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    dogbone

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 14, 2011
    2,981
    GTT - Gone To Texas
    Good to know about carbine to pistol rule. Looks like I'm buying a carbine then, because I don't have time nor the desire to build this myself. I want a complete package from this custom builder, and it seems if I want a pistol, all I can do is order his stripped lower and complete upper and build it myself - which seems ridiculous - thanks Frosh!

    Send a big FU to Frosh and get yourself a stripped lower.

    Time? Going very, very carefully and double checking each step of the lower build process shouldn't take more than an hour for your first one.

    Desire? There are plenty of folks in the community who look at AR builds as fun and I'm sure they'd be happy to help you out. An added plus is this will cut the build time in half.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    So basically all 4473’s for lowers should be filled out as “other” regardless of intention just to be safe. Should I decide to exercise free will and change my mind about a build I’ll be covered.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    In my view they all (stripped lowers) have to be classified as other, since they are not a pistol nor a long gun at the time of the transfer. Saying they are a pistol or a long gun could almost be considered to be fraudulent.

    I'm not on any crusade, but people need to know what they are signing when it comes to these 4473 forms.

    How many people out there don't know this and have manufactured a pistol on a lower that an ffl mistakenly classified as a long gun? I'm sure there have been many.

    Will it come back and bite them? I hope not.

    Just be careful out there and make sure those forms are correct BEFORE you sign them.
     

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