25 yard carry handle zero

arbud · Nov 17, 2018

Guys never been in military. Have only a 25 yard indoor range to zero. I know a 50 yard zero is most preferred with an ar shooting 223/556.
The reason I am stating all of this is because I just want to know a couple of things about carry handle zero at 25 yards.
Not to be a jerk but do not need graphs, nor measurements in meters, nor over and under grips.
Once I get on paper at 25 yards (which it should be to start of course), what is each click worth to move poi right or left. 1", 1/2", 1/4" which one.
Also same with elevation how much is each click worth at 25 yards. What is wrong with using the carry handle elevation sight adjustment instead of the front sight.
Thank you.

Hit and Run · Nov 17, 2018

arbud said:
Guys never been in military. Have only a 25 yard indoor range to zero. I know a 50 yard zero is most preferred with an ar shooting 223/556.
The reason I am stating all of this is because I just want to know a couple of things about carry handle zero at 25 yards.
Not to be a jerk but do not need graphs, nor measurements in meters, nor over and under grips.
Once I get on paper at 25 yards (which it should be to start of course), what is each click worth to move poi right or left. 1", 1/2", 1/4" which one.
Also same with elevation how much is each click worth at 25 yards. What is wrong with using the carry handle elevation sight adjustment instead of the front sight.
Thank you.

Assuming you have a A2 rear sight that allows for windage and elevation. You should still do basic zeroing with front sight for elevation. Use rear sight windage to change distances in field.

For A2 front sight (4 locating notches) at 25 yds:
Carbine length each click is .430 inches
Rifle length each click is .308 inches

Tools for moving front sight but a bullet tip will work to depress front sight retainer, but a tool for this is far easier.

In any case, for a 100 yrd zero shooting at 25 yds, bullet should strike paper 1.5 inches lower than aim point. Good rule of thumb.

Sent from my SM-G930P using Tapatalk

dreadpirate · Nov 17, 2018

Problem with military carry handle sights is they are set up for an initial zero of 25 METERS (not yards) and 300 meters; the rear drum can then adjust to a 400, 500, and 600 meter zero (assuming you are using the Military issue ammo or equivalent). For closer engage, the Army basically flips the rear sight to the large aperture for a 200 meter "close range" engagement; so there is not a default 100 yard zero with carry handle sights that will work in conjunction with the rear drum adjustment.

If you want a really good description of some options for zeroing your carry handle sights; check this link below. In particular, if you add a few clicks to the drum sight, then you can zero at 50 yards (yes, YARDS) and the markings on the drum sight are modified so that there is a setting for a 50 yard/200 meter zero, as well as an additional setting for 100 yard zero.

See The Revised Improvised Battle Zero (RIBZ) Method in this page:

https://savannaharsenal.com/2017/04/08/how-to-zero-ar-15-a2-type-sights/

Alan3413 · Nov 17, 2018

I do an initial zero at 25, then final adjustment at 100.

dreadpirate · Nov 18, 2018

To answer your other questions; the the shift in elevations per click for the front sight post is about 1.7" for a 16 inch barrel and 1.25" for a 20" barrel. The shift in windage at 100 yards is 0.5" per click on the rear sight (either barrel). The rear sight elevation drum is 0.75" up or down at 100 yards for a 16" barrel and 0.5" for a 20" barrel.
[edit] I should say carbine length gas system versus rifle length; not 16" versus 20" barrel.

Sundazes · Nov 18, 2018

Good question and good answers!

Magnumite · Nov 19, 2018

The click increments were a learning experience for me. I had it figured out pretty good on the 20" guns,
but noticed differences on the 16" guns. That is when I started poking around for design variations.
There are differences for the sight adjustment increments in the different series of sights and carry handles.
Adjustable iron sight guns I set for modified BSZ using the 2 and 3 click low for the 50/100 yard zeros.
For flip ups without elevation adjustment I set to 50 yard zero, which gets me a 25 yard zero 1.25" below point of aim.
Magpul does have the new adjustable rear sight, that seems to be a must have for the pseudo SPR backups.
This would be for military equipment. Civilian world...one would need to identify the thread pitch or do a click count.
Derive 25 meter (or yard if you wish) values from the moa values.

A2 (300/800)
Rear: Windage 0.5 moa, Elevation 1.0 moa
Front: 1.25 moa

A3/A4 (300/800)
Rear: Windage 0.5 moa, Elevation 0.5 moa
Front: 1.25 moa

Carbine (300/600)
Rear: Windage 0.75 moa, Elevation 0.75 moa
Front: 1.75 moa

JoshN · Nov 24, 2018

I know you said you didn't want charts but, these 3 answers your question based on military rifle sights from the A2, A4 and M4. Based on what configuration your AR has these will dial you in pretty well:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1sjLqCyN7etO7KZK4ZmB6dW61b2GkBO8H

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1VHdKIIFJ5DG0HiTuAE3o1PuifHXl4DJr

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1IL7D901_y-1zRLuKJvzlL381yTea745h

The type of zeroing you do should be based on your intended end result. Marine Corps battle sight zeroing is done at 36 yard/meters but allows you to hit targets out to 300m with no additional elevation adjustment afterward.

Zeroing with your front sight post for elevation gets you a baseline for any field adjustments you may need to make with the rear down the road. You zero at point X knowing it will give you accurate results up to X. You can then use the rear sights to adjust to any conditions that aren't what you initially zeroed at.

TheBert · Nov 24, 2018

arbud said:
Guys never been in military. Have only a 25 yard indoor range to zero. I know a 50 yard zero is most preferred with an ar shooting 223/556.
The reason I am stating all of this is because I just want to know a couple of things about carry handle zero at 25 yards.
Not to be a jerk but do not need graphs, nor measurements in meters, nor over and under grips.
Once I get on paper at 25 yards (which it should be to start of course), what is each click worth to move poi right or left. 1", 1/2", 1/4" which one.
Also same with elevation how much is each click worth at 25 yards. What is wrong with using the carry handle elevation sight adjustment instead of the front sight.
Thank you.

https://www.google.com/search?q=900...eAhVlpVkKHTRdCZwQsAR6BAgFEAE&biw=1347&bih=718

The plan is to shoot 3 shot groups, these are tight groups about the size of a dime or quarter. If you can't get the groups that tight then you need to work on your grouping. Then move the group to the center of the target by changing wind-age and eleavation. This will give you a battle sight zero at 300 yards I believe.

TOWcritter · Nov 24, 2018

Maybe these will help

NebTim · Nov 24, 2018

What TOWcritter posted is what you need.

I agree that zero at 25m is essentially equiv to 300m zero. That's max effective range for an AR (for most people). I think an AR is really ideally a 50-100m gun, good out to 200m for most people. So like you said, zeroing it at 50m will get you more 'usable' effective range, with less elevation - point of impact difference (between 25m to about 100m; an AR's most usable range). Hope that was a non-scientific but understandable explanation. Unless you are a competitive shooter, or some other special case, most people are better off zeroing their AR at 25m, then re-zeroing it at 50m and leaving it there.

If you zero at 25m and just leave it there, just know it will be climbing (aim lower) at further out targets. Another important skill is estimating range, have you had any formal training on this?

Pinecone · Nov 25, 2018

Zeroing at a longer range does not change the usable range or effective range. It just changes where the rifle will shoot close to point of aim without elevation adjustments (either sights or holds).

ironhead7544 · Dec 1, 2018

Good info.

You will have to check the POI with the ammo you use to be sure where you are hitting at the distances required. Charts are a good starting point but verify for best results.

The 1000 inch 25 Meter zeroing target for the M16A1 rifle with M193 ammo put the bullet strike about 1 inch below the POA.

25 yard carry handle zero

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