Legal Advice

Dizzle · Dec 18, 2018

I have the Ruger 8516 Elite Lower and I'm wondering if I can use it with a 10.5" pistol upper. I will remove the stock and put an SBA3 pistol brace on it before attaching it to the upper. It has never been installed with any upper at all yet.

Squaregrouper · Dec 18, 2018

Dizzle said:
I have the Ruger 8516 Elite Lower and I'm wondering if I can use it with a 10.5" pistol upper. I will remove the stock and put an SBA3 pistol brace on it before attaching it to the upper. It has never been installed with any upper at all yet.

If it was transferred as "other" (not rifle), you should be good to go.

Dizzle · Dec 18, 2018

I had to wait 7 days so I'm pretty sure it was "Other"

Hawkeye · Dec 18, 2018

squaregrouper said:
If it was transferred as "other" (not rifle), you should be good to go.

It doesn't matter how it was transferred.

It only matters if it was a pistol or a rifle first, which is based on the physical configuration of the firearm. If it had both a rifled barrel and a shoulder stock first, then it was a rifle first. If it had a rifled barrel but no stock, then it was a pistol first. If it was a pistol first you can do whatever with it, if it was a rifle first it stays a rifle forever.

Dizzle · Dec 18, 2018

It was a complete lower first and has never had an upper attached to it so it doesn't identify as rifle or pistol yet. I guess that means the choice is mine.

E.Shell · Dec 18, 2018

I would VERY strongly suggest that you look at your federal Form 4473 and see how the lower was transferred to you.

There are three choices that can be selected:

Handgun
Rifle
Other

If "Handgun" or "Other" are checked, then you may legally proceed with your handgun build.

If "Rifle" is checked, you are setting yourself up for a felony charge related to building an unauthorized SBR.

IANAL, but this isn't rocket surgery. LOOK AT YOUR 4473.

Hawkeye · Dec 18, 2018

Ed, ATF has stated in writing in the past that what it was marked as on the 4473 doesn't matter. All that matters is if it was ever physically configured as a rifle or a pistol, because being a rifle or pistol is defined in the law as having certain physical characteristics (i.e. simultaneously having a rifled barrel and a shoulder stock to be a rifle). A receiver has none of those characteristics, so it is ALWAYS an "other firearm" no matter which box was checked on the 4473.

I don't have that letter in front of me, but I'll see if I can dig it up.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 18, 2018

Short Answer - Yes

NateIU10 · Dec 18, 2018

E.Shell said:
I would VERY strongly suggest that you look at your federal Form 4473 and see how the lower was transferred to you.

There are three choices that can be selected:

Handgun
Rifle
Other

If "Handgun" or "Other" are checked, then you may legally proceed with your handgun build.

If "Rifle" is checked, you are setting yourself up for a felony charge related to building an unauthorized SBR.

IANAL, but this isn't rocket surgery. LOOK AT YOUR 4473.

A paperwork error does not make the gun "made from a rifle." I can also assure you that, as this lower left the factory, it was a "RECEVIER."

E.Shell · Dec 18, 2018

Thank you Hawkeye.

I was/is my understanding that if the 4473 called it a rifle, it IS a rifle. Definitely, as you point out, that if it had EVER been assembled as a rifle, it IS a rifle. I'd appreciate seeing the letter you reference.

Hawkeye said:
Ed, ATF has stated in writing in the past that what it was marked as on the 4473 doesn't matter. All that matters is if it was ever physically configured as a rifle or a pistol, because being a rifle or pistol is defined in the law as having certain physical characteristics (i.e. simultaneously having a rifled barrel and a shoulder stock to be a rifle). A receiver has none of those characteristics, so it is ALWAYS an "other firearm" no matter which box was checked on the 4473.

I don't have that letter in front of me, but I'll see if I can dig it up.

Dizzle · Dec 18, 2018

A lot of great answers thank you all for your time!

Squaregrouper · Dec 18, 2018

Dizzle said:
A lot of great answers thank you all for your time!

FWIW- Post #9 was written by an attorney who works for Sturm, Ruger & Co. In layman's terms- he is one of Ruger's lawyers.
It is safe to say he knows what he is talking about here. Remember he posted as a fellow forum member; not your lawyer.

Dizzle · Dec 18, 2018

Wow I feel privileged. I knew you guys wouldn't steer me wrong. I have never used this lower and it is a great product. I plan on using the MOE stock on a different rifle and I am leaning towards the SBA3 brace with 10.5" barrel for the Ruger Lower. Is an AR15 pistol chambered in 223/556 practical?

Hawkeye · Dec 18, 2018

With a 10.5" barrel, sure, it'll be practical. You lose some velocity from the shorter barrel, but it'll be a ton of fun to shoot and you can do almost anything with it.

Squaregrouper · Dec 18, 2018

Dizzle said:
Wow I feel privileged. I knew you guys wouldn't steer me wrong. I have never used this lower and it is a great product. I plan on using the MOE stock on a different rifle and I am leaning towards the SBA3 brace with 10.5" barrel for the Ruger Lower. Is an AR15 pistol chambered in 223/556 practical?

It would be fine. I wouldn't go under 10" in 5.56/.223, as velocity drops significantly below 11".
Personally, my pistol preference would be a .300 Blackout, but I reload (factory .300 ammo gets expensive) .300 Blackout was designed to fully burn powder within an 8.5" barrel.

lazarus · Dec 20, 2018

Hawkeye said:
With a 10.5" barrel, sure, it'll be practical. You lose some velocity from the shorter barrel, but it'll be a ton of fun to shoot and you can do almost anything with it.

Define practical? It’ll run, shoot and absolutely be lethal. It’ll also be loud as hell and throw fireballs. I mean, not as bad as a 7.5” or 8.5” 5.56, but it is a very significant increase over 14.5” even.

I’d go with a linear comp or blast forwarding device/flash can if you do go with a 10.5”. I had a 10.5” for a little while. With an A2 on it for about 30 rounds and then a Stoner linear comp. with the A2 it was significantly louder with more blast than any other gun I own or have shot. With the linear comp I’d call it maybe only slightly worse than a regular 16” with a brake (not an A2, but a brake).

Not something I’d want to ever use in doors unless I had ear protection (and good stuff). Even with a linear comp, if no ear pro is suspect in an HD situation and night a shot or two is going to leave you temporarily deaf and likely flash blind for a few seconds.

If it was HD that you were looking at, keep a set of electronic ear pro hanging from the gun. Or better yet get a 300 BO. It is much more pleasant to shoot out of a 10.5” barrel. And with .300 BO you could load subsonics. Even if you don’t use a can, subsonic 300BO is significantly quieter out of a short barrel than super sonic is.

Significantly quieter than a handgun. Not 22lr levels of quiet, but probably the quietest firearm you could use other than maybe a 22lr or 32acp.

Just some thoughts on the matter.

Hawkeye · Dec 20, 2018

lazarus said:
Define practical? It’ll run, shoot and absolutely be lethal. It’ll also be loud as hell and throw fireballs. I mean, not as bad as a 7.5” or 8.5” 5.56, but it is a very significant increase over 14.5” even.

I’d go with a linear comp or blast forwarding device/flash can if you do go with a 10.5”. I had a 10.5” for a little while. With an A2 on it for about 30 rounds and then a Stoner linear comp. with the A2 it was significantly louder with more blast than any other gun I own or have shot. With the linear comp I’d call it maybe only slightly worse than a regular 16” with a brake (not an A2, but a brake).

Not something I’d want to ever use in doors unless I had ear protection (and good stuff). Even with a linear comp, if no ear pro is suspect in an HD situation and night a shot or two is going to leave you temporarily deaf and likely flash blind for a few seconds.

Yeah, this is all true. I even have a loudener (a Rugged muzzle brake) on mine for when it isn't wearing a suppressor, and it's just punishing like that.

If it was HD that you were looking at, keep a set of electronic ear pro hanging from the gun. Or better yet get a 300 BO. It is much more pleasant to shoot out of a 10.5” barrel. And with .300 BO you could load subsonics. Even if you don’t use a can, subsonic 300BO is significantly quieter out of a short barrel than super sonic is.

Yup. I run a suppressor on my SBR almost all the time, no matter what caliber upper it's wearing (right now I have .300BLK and 5.56). The suppressor helps a ton, but even without it, I really like the 10.5 length for an AR in 5.56. It's short enough to be pretty handy, long enough to function and keep usable velocity, etc. Yes, if I was running one without a suppressor I'd want some sort of flash can or linear comp on it for sure because loud.

cantstop · Dec 20, 2018

FWIW, Ballistics By The Inch has the 223 ballistics per rifled barrel length.

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/223rifle.html

kenpo333 · Dec 20, 2018

Batt816 · Dec 20, 2018

squaregrouper said:
FWIW- Post #9 was written by an attorney who works for Sturm, Ruger & Co. In layman's terms- he is one of Ruger's lawyers.
It is safe to say he knows what he is talking about here. Remember he posted as a fellow forum member; not your lawyer.

Wow! He should know!!

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