Encounter at the AGC Pistol Range

webb297 · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
It "could be" a lot of things, but it wasn't. It was a request for a cold range at 3:30 because people wanted to go home, and other people wanted to set up. Thats all. Followed by a bad review on the internet days later, and an RSO was never even involved. I do realize everything is a world-ending badge pulling safety violation on the internet, but I usually wait for the body cam footage at least.

Now you are just being obtuse. The OP made no request. He issued a Cease Fire command.

Squaregrouper · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
It "could be" a lot of things, but it wasn't. It was a request for a cold range at 3:30 because people wanted to go home, and other people wanted to set up. Thats all. Followed by a bad review on the internet days later, and an RSO was never even involved. I do realize everything is a world-ending badge pulling safety violation on the internet, but I usually wait for the body cam footage at least.

Jake4U said:
Are you a badge carrying member of AGC? What associated club holds your membership?

He is not a badge holder. He was the Pot Stirrer in Chief in the AGC subforum as well. He was a contributing "member" as to why AGC pulled their IP status.
GBender hit the nail on the head with his/her most recent comment about DanB having a beef with AGC.

trickg · Nov 19, 2020

I've sifted my way down through most of this thread. You gotta love gun guys - there's always going to be a handful in a crowd who have to insist they are right, and they'll parse wording, split hairs, stress semantics, etc, all to prove their point that either someone else is wrong, or that they are right. These are the guys who will take a contrary point of view just so they have something to argue about.

In many instances, that's just fine - parse away and split those hairs - most of the time it doesn't matter.

In this case, I don't care what range you are on, or what the "rules" may be - a cease fire is exactly that - YOU STOP SHOOTING IMMEDIATELY. Period.

It doesn't matter who called it.

Mickey Mouse could call it.

Goldilocks could call it.

The mailman could call it.

For ANY reason whatsoever and at ANY time.

A shooter's responsibility at that point is to STOP EFFING SHOOTING, right now. The details can be worked out later as to why. Anyone who fails to comply with a cease fire should be asked to pack up and leave immediately.

For me, this is not a matter up for debate - you can't parse semantics or split hairs - it's a safety issue, and there's no gray area. If any of you in this thread disagree with that, I don't ever want to be at a range with you.

Homesick Texan · Nov 19, 2020

Some of you guys sound like my wife.....just because you say something doesn't mean a person hears it. I agree with the one poster that said the guy may not have heard the cease-fire but crossed then line when he realized it and then didn't comply.

Overwatch326 · Nov 19, 2020

squaregrouper said:
GBender- What you did was correct, given that the majority of the line was in agreement to go cold at the top and bottom of the hour. Please ignore the one poster in this thread (who isn't an AGC member) telling you otherwise.
Proper etiquette is for a casual request to make the range cold. This is where you will usually hear "Let me shoot the last 2 rounds in my mag" or "Give me a minute", etc. Once everyone, or most everyone, unloads and makes safe, it is proper to give the last guy or gal another minute or two to make safe.
"CEASE FIRE" is then audibly called and is an order, not a request. Someone ignoring a cease fire order should be permanently kicked out of the club.
There are several of us in this thread who teach AGC new member walk throughs and a couple RSO's posting as well.

Jake4U said:
GBender,

You asked some great questions and, other than an outlier response, the input seems to be, "Yes, the guy at the range was seriously in the wrong" and "Next time get an RSO involved because the shooter was unsafe on that range."

Enjoy your next visit to AGC and thanks for your investment in safety.

Okay, so in the future, I'll ask for "Range Cold", and keep "Cease Fire" for when everyone's confirmed they're okay with going cold, or for emergencies. Like I said, I wasn't trying to take charge; I felt I was just passing down the order from the RSO at the rifle range, which is what the one group of folks were already doing when we got there. Thanks for the advice, guys. I think I'll add the Barnes House number to my contacts list, too, so I can call them if there's a problem.

squaregrouper said:
He is not a badge holder. He was the Pot Stirrer in Chief in the AGC subforum as well. He was a contributing "member" as to why AGC pulled their IP status.
GBender hit the nail on the head with his/her most recent comment about DanB having a beef with AGC.

Yeah, I thought I recognized the name. So, thanks to ones like him, now we can't post to other members of the AGC directly, in its own forum? Nice. Of course, I'm sure DanB considers it a badge of honor.

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

squaregrouper said:
He is not a badge holder. He was the Pot Stirrer in Chief in the AGC subforum as well. He was a contributing "member" as to why AGC pulled their IP status.
GBender hit the nail on the head with his/her most recent comment about DanB having a beef with AGC.

Thanks. It didn't take long to catch a whiff of three day old BS off the clown. The OP sounds like a pretty good guy.

GBender - you a member of MSI - Yet?

You should join - you sound like our kind of member. I'm also a member of Greenbelt and buy my AGC badge through them, but you can also get one as a member of MSI. Or join simply because it's important for us to fight anti-2A stupidity in Annapolis as well as dispel the notion that gun owners are reckless clowns, like Dan.

fred2207 · Nov 19, 2020

travistheone said:
semantics matter here. Cease fire is a command. the words demand compliance.

cold range is more of a question or a statement about the current condition.

This above.. :thumbsup:

Anyone who refuses to comply with a cease fire command is an accident waiting to happen and, "is either ignorant of range safety or just plane stupid", probably the latter in this case, as most all public/private ranges require you acknowledge range safety requirements before allowing use.

Overwatch326 · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
Thanks. It didn't take long to catch a whiff of three day old BS off the clown. The OP sounds like a pretty good guy.

GBender - you a member of MSI - Yet?

You should join - you sound like our kind of member. I'm also a member of Greenbelt and buy my AGC badge through them, but you can also get one as a member of MSI. Or join simply because it's important for us to fight anti-2A stupidity in Annapolis as well as dispel the notion that gun owners are reckless clowns, like Dan.

Not as yet; I dumped a bunch of cash down the NRA Life hole, and I'm working on getting my GOA Life Membership now, but MSI is next on my list. Funny you mention it, though; I was actually planning on grabbing an annual membership with MSI next payday. I'm subscribed on your YouTube channel, though!

I'm currently signed up with Maryland Rifle Club, and I'm looking forward to getting into that; they're talking about holding milsurp matches next year, and I've been itching to break out the WWI-WWII arsenal.

Skipjacks · Nov 19, 2020

I have never shot at AGC and do not have a badge there

But I don't think that is really revelent here

I have shot at public ranger, private ranges, military ranges, pistol ranges, rifle ranges, tank/laser/high explosive ranges, indoors, outdoors....you name it

I have NEVER been on a range in my entire life where the words "cease fire" uttered by ANYONE were not absolute and unquestionable

Period. No discussions.

I have seen cease fires called for in error...someone thought there was a dangerous situation when there wasn't...and when someone simply used the wrong terms like yelling "cease fire" to a shooter he was training and didn't mean to say it to the whole range....but it doesn't matter.

You hear. You stop.

If someone shouldn't have called a cease fire, you don't even chastise them. They made a judgement call and you honor it. Period.

There is zero harm in stopping your shooting and clearing your weapon for 2 minutes while a mistaken cease fire gets sorted out. There is A LOT of harm that can happen if you don't.

And anyone who doesn't understand this should stick to Nerf guns.

Dave · Nov 19, 2020

cutting through the semantics of the words "cease fire," if someone calls anything that remotely implies stop shooting, you stop shooting immediately. Period, end of story. Hell, if someone yells gibberish, you should stop shooting until you can confirm it's safe to resume. You cannot rely on other peoples' knowledge of correct nomenclature.

a cold range request is if someone approaches you and asks if it's ok to stop. that implies a back and forth conversation. anything other than this, full stop. there is no room for debate. they say "no, give me 2 more min," and you call cease fire anyway. they still have to stop, but you're a dick ;p

I no longer shoot at AGC and have no intention of returning anytime soon, so I have no skin in this game.

Alan3413 · Nov 19, 2020

danb said:
It "could be" a lot of things, but it wasn't. It was a request for a cold range at 3:30 because people wanted to go home, and other people wanted to set up. Thats all. Followed by a bad review on the internet days later, and an RSO was never even involved. I do realize everything is a world-ending badge pulling safety violation on the internet, but I usually wait for the body cam footage at least.

No. A cease fire means Stop Right Now.

Figuring out the could-be would-be and should-be's comes after you've made your weapon safe and stepped off the concrete pad

WatTyler · Nov 19, 2020

Most everybody is on the right path here. CEASE FIRE should activate the nerve that goes from the ear directly to the hand holding the gun. If it's not a reflex, work on making it so.

sgt23preston · Nov 19, 2020

When I call a "Line Cold"...

I walk the length of the line, look everyone in the eye or tap on the shoulder & announce that we are going COLD in a few minutes & on my signal...

I accomodarte folks who are on the line & "ready to fire" to shoot...

When I'm sure everyone is aware & the guns are on the table, pointed down range, actions are open & cleared, then I call "LINE IS COLD"...

I also remind everyone NOT to touch thier guns while the Line is Cold...

It works..!

Jake4U · Nov 19, 2020

At the AGC the sequence in the rules is calling a Cease Fire. Once all firearms are made safe and everyone is off the pad/behind the white line indicating they have made their firearms safe as a result of the Cease Fire, then the range is called Cold.

.

Boats · Nov 19, 2020

outrider58 said:
There is a difference, in most cases on most ranges(not a member of AGC), between a "cease fire" call and a "cold range" request.

semantics. ceasefire means exactly that. Dude(or rather his guest, same thing) shot after a cease fire was called.

The only excuse is if he didn't hear the cease fire, or thought it was a request. And even then, his "you can wait" comment was uncalled for.

bigmanindc · Nov 19, 2020

cantstop said:
. FTW! .

LOL I didn't get it at first but LOL I understand!!!!!

Darkemp · Nov 19, 2020

Jake4U said:
As a member of MSI's AGC safety committee, you are correct except that it was such a serious infraction his badge would have been pulled at the AGC. He'd have to convince his club to appeal on his behalf to the AGC leadership for him.

I doubt MSI would as I certainly wouldn't support it being returned.

Agree with this- and report on the spot at the Barnes house if you don’t see an RSO out on the line.

mcbruzdzinski · Nov 19, 2020

squaregrouper said:
GBender- What you did was correct, given that the majority of the line was in agreement to go cold at the top and bottom of the hour. Please ignore the one poster in this thread (who isn't an AGC member) telling you otherwise.
Proper etiquette is for a casual request to make the range cold. This is where you will usually hear "Let me shoot the last 2 rounds in my mag" or "Give me a minute", etc. Once everyone, or most everyone, unloads and makes safe, it is proper to give the last guy or gal another minute or two to make safe.
"CEASE FIRE" is then audibly called and is an order, not a request. Someone ignoring a cease fire order should be permanently kicked out of the club.
There are several of us in this thread who teach AGC new member walk throughs and a couple RSO's posting as well.

Having been at the AGC for many years, this sums up how many of us treat the need for both having the pistol range 'go cold' and for a 'cease fire'.

As many have already stated, the member should have been reported to the RSO.

Johnconlee · Nov 19, 2020

Cease fire means cease fire now. No excuses or waiting and anyone can call it any time.

Darkemp · Nov 19, 2020

Johnconlee said:
Cease fire means cease fire now. No excuses or waiting and anyone can call it any time.

I’ve been on the line when deer walk out in the line of fire and an emergency cease fire has to be called by shooters- means stop, unload, step back immediately. No room at AGC for asshats who don’t follow the rules, it’s supposed to be a safe place for the responsible.

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