First Time Shooting Handgun in Many Years, Seeking Advice

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  • cstone

    Active Member
    Dec 12, 2018
    842
    Baltimore, MD


    Leatham is absolutely correct. Jerk the trigger without the gun moving and you will hit your target. Shooting fast is different than shooting accurately, so if you are shooting for time, don't worry about groups so much as hitting the target every time. If you are shooting defensively, I tell people get really good at 3 rounds from 3 yards, in 3 seconds (or less). This is where most gun fights happen.

    The vast majority of my shooting is at 7 yards or less and I almost always shoot for speed and every round has to be in the A zone (8"x8" circle) Anything outside means the drill needs to be done again. At distances less than 7 yards with very short splits, seeing the front sight is a flash before the gun goes off.

    Bench or better Ransom rest the pistol and make certain it is sighted correctly. Have another shooter that you know is proficient, shoot the pistol to make certain it is sighted correctly. Once you know that you are the problem, then you can work on correcting the problem. Dry fire and grip and draw are more important initially than anything else. Nothing else matters if you don't have a good grip on the gun. With a good grip on the gun (so that the gun doesn't move while you are pulling the trigger) you can shoot accurately while moving your entire body or while shooting from unusual positions.

    It is a process but remind yourself how much fun the process can be. Don't give up.

    Be safe.
     

    GuitarmanNick

    Ultimate Member
    Jan 9, 2017
    2,221
    Laurel
    The first time I shoot a "new to me" handgun, I shoot it from a rest to check the point of impact in relation to the sights. Once I know the sights are set to hit the center of the target, the rest is up to the ammunition and my skills. Some milsurps hit too high or too low and can vary depending on the ammunition you use, but most handguns are very good on elevation with standard sights and loads.

    As CStone suggests, once you know where the gun shoots, then you can better determine what you may need to improve upon.

    I have a shotgun that I could not get slugs to impact where I was aiming so I asked another shooter to fire it. He put a group right where mine was which confirmed the gun had the problem. A replacement barrel fixed it and was covered under warranty.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Also, when aiming, am I supposed to cover where I want to hit with the front site dot or am I suppose to put the top of the front post right below where I want to hit?

    It depends.

    For most pistols these days, the top of the front sight is where the bullet will impact.

    For target pistols, the sights are normally set for a "lollipop hold." That is where the round bullseye is sitting on top of the front sight, so it looks like a lollipop.

    The dot is for quick alignment with the dots on the rear sight.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Ball and dummy drills are excellent for helping determine markmanship discrepencies. If the trigger/gun is being jerked, milked, heeled...it will be glarinly obvious

    The other drill I have used to to balance a coin on the front sight, and work on trigger control to keep the coin on the front sight when squeezing the trigger.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    Another issue, don't use a silhouette target, use a round bullseye or target dots. Give yourself a smaller aiming point, so you can be sure you are actually aiming at the same point every time.
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    Another issue, don't use a silhouette target, use a round bullseye or target dots. Give yourself a smaller aiming point, so you can be sure you are actually aiming at the same point every time.

    One can use too small a target. The temptation is to ‘pick off’ or frame the shot and jerking the trigger. A round bull where the diameter of the bull is as wide or a little wider than the front sight as seen in the shooting posture us prudent. Since no one holds the gun perfectly still the shooter should use the area aiming concept of firing the shot. Practicing will reduce the area covered by the wobble.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,879
    The only target too small, is one you can't see at the relevant distance . Even if the target is smaller than expected group size, it will provide a precise aiming point . Even if the rounds don't all land upon the bullseye, whatever , the relevant thing is the grouping, and the relationship to the aiming point .
     

    gorgeman

    Active Member
    Apr 23, 2013
    127
    Ball and dummy is an excellent drill focus solely on front sight { target rear sight should be out of focus } fight the urge to look at the target try shooting one handed the non shooting hand could be masking basic mistakes index trigger finger in middle of first pad RELAX does worry when the weapon goes off good luck

    stay away from bullseye target use a piece of paper draw a 5 inch box sights in middle add pressure till the pistol goes off make box smaller as groups shrink this will help eliminate forcing the trigger when the front sight is hiiting the black let the gun go off
     

    Magnumite

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 17, 2007
    6,561
    Harford County, Maryland
    Paper plates shooting at center is good way to reduce jumping on the trigger.

    Too small a target can actually net larger groups and inconsistencies. This is because lack of definition of the target is lost.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,879
    Ok , I was starting to make assumptions . I don't know if the OP's goal is shooting accurately, or to shoot 5in groups ?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    You’re coming off sight picture during firing. I recommend firing a round followed by 3-5 dryfires, and repeat.
    If Calvert isn’t too far of a hike for you, you’re invited to come over for some instruction.
    —Ken

    I agree with this one. OP if you are at 25ft and you were only getting 70% on target by the end of a 150 round session and you were shooting silhouettes (unless tiny ones or you mean center bull) then that sounds like a bad/inconsistent sight picture. Even firing fast I can dump 17 rounds from my G17 and get 95-100% on target on a 12” target at 12yds (36ft). I am not a very good pistol marksman. If I am careful it can put 100% in to a 4” circle at 12yds with it.

    But I have a hard time being careful even slow firing. I’ve got bad breathing/shot cadence among other things and inconsistent weak hand pressure. It also doesn’t help that the sight picture is pretty different between my handguns. My G17 wants the dot centered in the rear notch and the bull floating just on the top of the dot (barely a 6 o’clock hold). My P1 likes the same (yay!). My Cz82 wants the same sight picture, but the front dot just covering the target. My Cz82, P64 and Colt official police want the front blade even with the rear notch and just covering the target. My yugo M57 wants me aiming with the base of the front blade at the top of the rear notch and aimed at 12 o’clock very high (basically aim 8” high at 12yds for a center bull hit. Still working on it to “fix” the POI).

    When I am shooting and I can tell my sight picture is inconsistent when I pull the trigger, that’s when my shots are several inches off at 7-12yds (and likely not even on paper at 17+).
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Leatham is absolutely correct. Jerk the trigger without the gun moving and you will hit your target. Shooting fast is different than shooting accurately, so if you are shooting for time, don't worry about groups so much as hitting the target every time. If you are shooting defensively, I tell people get really good at 3 rounds from 3 yards, in 3 seconds (or less). This is where most gun fights happen.

    The vast majority of my shooting is at 7 yards or less and I almost always shoot for speed and every round has to be in the A zone (8"x8" circle) Anything outside means the drill needs to be done again. At distances less than 7 yards with very short splits, seeing the front sight is a flash before the gun goes off.

    Bench or better Ransom rest the pistol and make certain it is sighted correctly. Have another shooter that you know is proficient, shoot the pistol to make certain it is sighted correctly. Once you know that you are the problem, then you can work on correcting the problem. Dry fire and grip and draw are more important initially than anything else. Nothing else matters if you don't have a good grip on the gun. With a good grip on the gun (so that the gun doesn't move while you are pulling the trigger) you can shoot accurately while moving your entire body or while shooting from unusual positions.

    It is a process but remind yourself how much fun the process can be. Don't give up.

    Be safe.

    I do a bit of both. The range I shoot on does not appreciate “rapid fire”, in this case uncontrolled rapid fire (mag dump at your peril). So I never practice trying to fire as fast as possible and try to get it controlled. But I will shoot as fast as I think I can be reasonably controlled. See above on getting all rounds on paper (12”) at 12yds. For me that’s usually maybe 12-14 seconds for 17 rounds.

    Usually I’ll run a mag or two (or cylinder) through whatever handgun I am shooting in a given session rapid fire (as defined above. Some guns I can shoot as fast. My P64 its almost exactly 1 shot a second cadence, same with my revolver, most of the rest of mine it’s about 5 shots in 4 seconds). The rest of the time I am working on aimed and careful marksmanship off hand. I only use a rest if I am having real issues (mostly just with a new gun) to confirm where the gun is throwing the lead.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,879
    * Disclaimer ! * Without in person observation of OP , I have no clue if applicable to OP . This is general observations on the topic .

    ***************_***

    ( At these distances ) Trigger Control is the more important, and more common issue than sight alignm
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    The real answer is to get some time with a certified instructor.

    You will get more out of an hour with a good instructor than many hours on your own. And on your own, you tend to reinforce your errors.

    And I HIGHLY recommend a good, certified instructor, not the person who just offers advice. They may not know any more than you do. And they have not been trained to provide the information in a usable manner.
     

    DanGuy48

    Ultimate Member
    If you believe your sight picture is good, try this little experiment. Make sure of your form, that all is correct. When you’re ready to fire, try this. Instead of a steady squeeze, apply the trigger squeeze in stages, like 20% pressure, 20% more, 20% more, etc. until it fires. What has changed in your group on target when you do that? This is not a permanent way to shoot, it’s just a little test to diagnose a problem I’ve repeatedly seen with handgun shooters.

    Edit: I just attached a photo of a guy who was having a similar issue, stringing his shots low and left (right handed shooter). He asked about his group on the upper right target, saying that he was sure he had a good, consistent sight picture but his group didn’t reflect it. I had him try that little test on the rest of the target and you can see a dramatic difference.
     

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    ralph.mclean

    GOC (Grumpy Old Cop)
    Jan 27, 2018
    236
    Edgewater, MD
    Where are you? I'm a cop (36 years) and I shoot 15 to 20 times a year. I'm 59 and I've been shooting since I was eight or nine. I've helped a hundred people learn to shoot. I'll meet up with you and give you a hand. I'm in the Edgewater area, if you're interested. If you can't meet, take a friend to the range with you and have them video you from both the back and the side, if possible. The video will help you discern if you are developing any bad habits/tics.
     

    JustPlinking

    Member
    Oct 11, 2018
    28
    I just wanted to post an update. I read all of the advice here (also thanks to all who offered a free lesson) as well as this book (link).

    After doing all of that now I am getting pretty consistent groups on the bulleye albeit to the lower left of it.

    Where I was going wrong before was lots of things (most of which you all picked up on).

    • I was coming up off the sighs after I shot to see where it was hitting. I now watch the gun recoil and then get sight picture back after the gun settles.
    • My primary hand grip was way to tight, loosened it a lot.
    • My support grip was wrong, I was more focused on squeezing my main hand and forgot to make sure the palm of the support hand was making good contact with the little bit of grip that was not covered by my main hand.
    • My thumbs were pointed at a 45 in relation to the slide so I moved them so there are in line with the slide.
    • My trigger pull was not straight back and its still not which is why I think I am still a little to the left.
    • I was fliching. I now slowly squeeze the trigger to try to make the gun going of unanticipated so I am not able to flinch.

    Thanks again for the help, hopefully next time Ill get the trigger pull ironed out so Ill be dead center on the bullseye instead of the lower left of it.
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,665
    Not Far Enough from the City
    I just wanted to post an update. I read all of the advice here (also thanks to all who offered a free lesson) as well as this book (link).

    After doing all of that now I am getting pretty consistent groups on the bulleye albeit to the lower left of it.

    Where I was going wrong before was lots of things (most of which you all picked up on).

    • I was coming up off the sighs after I shot to see where it was hitting. I now watch the gun recoil and then get sight picture back after the gun settles.
    • My primary hand grip was way to tight, loosened it a lot.
    • My support grip was wrong, I was more focused on squeezing my main hand and forgot to make sure the palm of the support hand was making good contact with the little bit of grip that was not covered by my main hand.
    • My thumbs were pointed at a 45 in relation to the slide so I moved them so there are in line with the slide.
    • My trigger pull was not straight back and its still not which is why I think I am still a little to the left.
    • I was fliching. I now slowly squeeze the trigger to try to make the gun going of unanticipated so I am not able to flinch.

    Thanks again for the help, hopefully next time Ill get the trigger pull ironed out so Ill be dead center on the bullseye instead of the lower left of it.

    And thank you for the update! We all benefit from the feedback! Good Luck with your shooting!
     

    TomisinMd

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 11, 2013
    1,728
    Elkton, Md
    The real answer is to get some time with a certified instructor.

    You will get more out of an hour with a good instructor than many hours on your own. And on your own, you tend to reinforce your errors.

    And I HIGHLY recommend a good, certified instructor, not the person who just offers advice. They may not know any more than you do. And they have not been trained to provide the information in a usable manner.

    +100 !!! This is the best advice yet.
     

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