Anti argument against reciprocity:Fake Permits

Jim12 · Dec 10, 2017

iH8DemLibz said:
That's the kicker.

The government will bend over backwards to help illegal alien non-citizens.

But when US born and bred real-citizens ask for our rights to be recognized, our government flips us the bird.

Backwards as can be.

Add that to the list of liberal hypocrisies and ironies.

I'm waiting for one of the open border advocates to say that illegals should be favored over citizens for gun ownership, because stats show that sanctuary cities and immigrant communities are more law abiding than others.

Jim12 · Dec 10, 2017

Threeband said:
Most states already recognize permits from many other states. They have no problem with counterfeit permits.

This is a phony argument which relies on the audience not realizing that concealed carry is already legal in most of the country, and that the fantasy terrors of "blood in the streets" and "shootouts at stop signs" simply do not occur.

Think about that: concealed carry is already legal in most of the country, and most people don't even realize it simply because the mythical terrors do not exist.

Maybe it's a public relations and misinformation problem. Where's the NRA?

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

swamplynx said:
In our current world, I'd have to say that is a "feature" more than a "problem." Do you really want MSP or a NJ statie knowing you have a VA NR permit on a traffic stop? All of a sudden your VA CHP becomes probable cause for a Bolshevik storm trooper to detain you and search your vehicle.

Why would MSP or NJ run your VA NR permit info on a stop in MD or NJ?

I'm not sure how NLET queries work, but I believe it's done on a on a state by state basis, not globally. Without your actual permit, an LEO on a traffic stop would have no knowledge if you had any permit, unless the state ties either DL or registration info to your permit, like VA does for it's residents.

IIRC, the NLET system is not designed global search to see if a person holds any permit, but to check individuals and their individual permit states. So if all states would connect their databases to NLETS, the anti argument about no method of validation goes away. What reason would a state have for not connecting to NLETS? Maybe cost? Maybe make it ar part of the NR bill.

The mere existence of a permit is not PC for a search anyway.

But I admit it's just supposition on my part

K31 · Dec 10, 2017

TheOriginalMexicanBob said:
The government creating legal documentation for illegal aliens seems to be perfectly acceptable as well.

But asking for any kind of documentation to vote is racist.

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

Inigoes said:
They do have a 24/7 database to check, NCIC.

If someone pops for a felony, and has a gun permit. They are likely a prohibited person.

This is already being done, btw.

OK, so what you're saying is police can already determine, on the spot, whether someone is a prohibited person? Is NCIC basically the same as NICS (appear on one, appear on both)?

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

swinokur said:
Many LEO's can access other states' permit database through NLETS. The problem is many don't.

access map below
.

Thanks, this is very helpful. By any chance do you know if this means the other states do not have 24/7 verification, or simply not through NLETS?

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

I don't know if mental health info that would make you prohibited is in an NCIC check. Mental health commitments are supposed to be in NICS, but states do a crappy job, reporting the info, MD included.

Warrants and criminal history-yes. Other things-not so much

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

press1280 said:
Thanks, this is very helpful. By any chance do you know if this means the other states do not have 24/7 verification, or simply not through NLETS?

I know some states have a 24/7 phone number. Not sure how many do and if so, which are connected via NLETS. If it was a requirement, the anti argument about fake permits goes away. If states made CCW permits like their secure ID DL, that also would minimize the claim of forged CCW permits.

It's a bogus argument anyway IMO.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 10, 2017

A least one state, Utah , is not listed on the chart, but does have a 24hr 800 number for LE to verify Permit status .

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

I just did a spot check of my permits and which have either a phone number, NLETS access, none or both..It's not conclusive, just an example.

This is not scientific, just shows the disparity of methods to get permit info.

Some states allow their LEO's to get permit info, but may not be connected to NLETS

Only two states have neither a phone number or NLETS access. Both in the NE. Interesting. No idea if phone numbers have 24/7 access either.

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

swamplynx said:
In our current world, I'd have to say that is a "feature" more than a "problem." Do you really want MSP or a NJ statie knowing you have a VA NR permit on a traffic stop? All of a sudden your VA CHP becomes probable cause for a Bolshevik storm trooper to detain you and search your vehicle.

I hear what you're saying, although, if this passes then then they'd have one less reason to search your vehicle; they already would know you're legal for handguns on your person.
One thing which you reminded me of though, and I could see changing as a result of reciprocity passing is that all the may-issues start requiring notification. Looks like NONE require it now.

Inigoes · Dec 10, 2017

press1280 said:
OK, so what you're saying is police can already determine, on the spot, whether someone is a prohibited person? Is NCIC basically the same as NICS (appear on one, appear on both)?

Yep

Once police ask for your identifying information, your criminal history will pop up.

NICS is the go/no-go quick reference for gun dealers.

NCIC will produce a rap sheet a mile long, and any outstanding warrants.

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

swinokur said:
I know some states have a 24/7 phone number. Not sure how many do and if so, which are connected via NLETS. If it was a requirement, the anti argument about fake permits goes away. If states made CCW permits like their secure ID DL, that also would minimize the claim of forged CCW permits.

It's a bogus argument anyway IMO.

I agree. For one thing, who would want a faked permit? Obviously, only someone who couldn't get a real one. And, if someone is prohibited as a possessor and that fact can be verified by any LEO, then a faked permit is essentially useless.
If you take all the different criteria for all permits nationwide, putting aside age requirements and training, how many people can be prohibited from a permit in some states but not in others? I have to imagine a very, very small minority.

Reason I bring this up is that I was a little disappointed with the House GOP's response to the Dems "sky is falling" charges during the hearings. Maybe they knew they had the votes and weren't going to put in the effort. But I feel they really could have taken the anti arguments apart. Instead it just seemed like the same canned statements on both sides.

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

swinokur said:
I don't know if mental health info that would make you prohibited is in an NCIC check. Mental health commitments are supposed to be in NICS, but states do a crappy job, reporting the info, MD included.

Warrants and criminal history-yes. Other things-not so much

True, but supposedly the Fix Nics is supposed to address this as well........

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

LEO on the street don't not have access to NICS. Gun dealers do.

An NCIC check may not necessarily reveal a person is prohibited for mental health reasons.

Inigoes · Dec 10, 2017

swinokur said:
LEO on the street don't not have access to NICS. Gun dealers do.

An NCIC check may not necessarily reveal a person is prohibited for mental health reasons.

Depends, if someone has been adjudicated as mentally defective it would.

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

The words Necessarily and Depends put the system in jeopardy.

Are civil commitments reported to NCIC? Those are not criminal offenses.

press1280 · Dec 10, 2017

Inigoes said:
Depends, if someone has been adjudicated as mentally defective it would.

Mental health is a gray area for sure. But if NCIC picks up those adjudicated, then those are by definition the most at risk.
I think most states follow this although I think there may be a select few that disqualify people who even have a voluntary commitment on their record, which IMO does a HUGE disservice and makes it less likely someone gets help.

Inigoes · Dec 10, 2017

swinokur said:
The words Necessarily and Depends put the system in jeopardy.

Are civil commitments reported to NCIC? Those are not criminal offenses.

That is a good question.

Since HHS was created under obamacare as a clearing house of medical information, is that department feeding the LE databases as a end around state laws?

swinokur · Dec 10, 2017

press1280 said:
Mental health is a gray area for sure. But if NCIC picks up those adjudicated, then those are by definition the most at risk.
I think most states follow this although I think there may be a select few that disqualify people who even have a voluntary commitment on their record, which IMO does a HUGE disservice and makes it less likely someone gets help.

MD is one of them a voluntary commitment of more than 30 days gets reported to NICS.

Anti argument against reciprocity:Fake Permits

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