Help me come up with some cogent 2A arguments

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  • Mr. Ed

    This IS my Happy Face
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2009
    7,899
    Edgewater
    I simply choose not to engage. Entrenched emotional views and thinly veiled attempts to achieve other goals cannot be countered.
    - Mr Ed (gen 1)

    Holy cow! I didn't know there were two of us... but I guess two Eds are better than one, right? :D
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,462
    MoCo
    all the arguments against gun control make sense to all of us. but a lot of people don't own guns and don't appreciate the 2a and just believe that the more guns out there, the higher the chance they will be used against them. even knowing that a ban or restriction wouldn't remove all the guns, and knowing that criminals already don't follow laws and thus won't be affected, if new laws, bans, and restrictions just get a couple of guns off the street, they are certainly no worse off and might be a little better off. so yeah they push and vote to ban and restrict as it (at least in their minds) costs them absolutely nothing.

    drunk driving, texting while driving, and even knives and bats all result in lots of deaths, but most folks have a drink here and there, have cell phones, etc and so they're not pushing for bans of these things. no investment in guns, no reason to not ban them.

    don't know how you fight that mentality. my thing is let's try getting the bad guys out of circulation first, as it is actually people committing these crimes. violent criminal - put and stay in jail, period, end of story, should be a no-brainer but it clearly doesn't work that way. 10, 20 and even 30 police responses to your house, something needs to happen while that gets sorted out. post online threats - get put away just as if you actually followed through.

    slippery slope though. your ahole neighbor calls the cops on you in spite once or twice. or ex-spouse does the same. see a shrink for ptsd or whatever. the trick is where is the line drawn.

    Even though it is the people not guns that kill, anti-2a folks call firearms inherently dangerous. What about swimming pools? They are inherently dangerous and quick and unscientific google says drownings are about a quarter of the amount of gun deaths. So, then shouldn't we ban swimming pools using that logic?

    Amen. Our founding Fathers didn't trust the government and THEY WERE the government.. what does that say?
    Therein lies the rub. In the cases of things that are not banned, it is because while the costs are visible, so are the benefits. Cars, alcohol, texting and pools give us the minus side, AND the plus side of the ledger, in real time.

    Guns, on the other hand, readily show us the minus side, usually in our faces and in living color, whereas the pluses are hard to see, and largely in the future. What is the value of having the means to protect our liberty, both our own individual liberty and the liberty of hundreds of millions in our society, maybe five, 50 or 250 years in the future? Maybe the mere presence of firearms over the past 242 years has silently prevented a tyrant from arising. How to you measure, take credit for, or place value on, all of these hard to specifically point to benefits?

    My perspective on this comes from having family members grow up in Nazi occupied nations during WWII. The pure evil of the Nazis, the Soviets, especially under Stalin, and the Chinese, especially during the cultural revolution, were all recent acts perpetrated by people alive during our, our parents, or our grandparents time. These were authorized acts committed by governments! Citizens were powerless to save themselves from their own governments. We may be headed that way. If we disarm, the impact of our decision will fall upon our progeny for generations to come. I have a hard time being right about my retirement investments. I cannot imagine having the ability to be right for all time. If we disarm and are wrong about it, the result would be a true catastrophic.
     

    giggity

    Active Member
    Nov 8, 2013
    199
    Most if not all anti-gun people know nothing about firearms. Stop trying to convince them, they're already convinced they're right, show them! When one of your friends is against firearms offer to show them one, teach them on how they work, and take them to the range.

    If someone has a fear of something, like guns, they don't want to confront that fear. They're probably not going to want to look at one either so ensure their safety. If you're truly friends with them hopefully they trust you. When you show them a firearm for the first time show them when the gun is disassembled (field stripped) with no ammo in sight. Tell them there's no ammo around (and don't have ammo around) and that it's completely safe. Let them handle it while it's disassembled and their curiosity should take over. Don't say anything! Let them look at and handle it. Soon enough they'll start asking questions, answer those questions and those questions only! If they don't ask anything then point out a few key parts. Don't use fancy terminology, use simple words/terms. Keep things simple. Don't show off your knowledge, it's not the time.

    Once they stop asking questions offer him/her if they'd like to see it assembled. Again ensure they're safely and remind them that there is no ammo around and it's completely safe. Before you hand them an assembled firearm go over the 3 basic rules. Hover over them and make sure they don't break those 3 rules. Let them look at it momentarily and then show/teach them how it works. Again let them ask the questions. When you're done showing it to them offer to take him/her to the range. Don't be a cheap ass, pay for all the ammo and range time.

    Remember this is exposure to firearms, your not trying to teach them everything in one day. Only after they've been exposed to firearms and have a basic knowledge and understanding on how they work will you be able to discuss firearm safety and gun control laws.
     

    Zorros

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 10, 2017
    1,407
    Metropolis
    You can’t convince most of the others to change their stance. This issue is highly polarizing, becoming more so in th elast several weeks. Worries me. The strongest resson for the 2A was the ability of citizens to possess arms to offset the arms of the colonial standing army. That was the framer’s intent. THe history goes deeper, of course, but the anti federalists feared a strong central govt ( ya think?) and no assurances from the federalists could convince them otherwise. When you, if you dare, mention this basis, they look at you like you are insane. But its not for them or the courts to draw the curtain on any const right. That is what a constitutional amendment is for. In 2008 the c sct for the first time focused on self defense as a const right. In 08 heller involved self defense and the ct was not going afield to base a ruling on a ground not before it.
    These anti gunners are not like grace kelly in hi noon. They wont pick up a gun to save their lives. I write on 2A, comment on it, have been involved at the federal ct level in 2A cases and teach it at the law school and college level. To whomever will listen. Students will listen and understand ( i hope) what is said, and i approach my courses from neutrality, but they are either pro or anti guns. Few are neutral. They don’t switch. Over and out.
     

    deesly1

    Active Member
    Nov 16, 2011
    412
    I really want some help from you guys. I have tried just about every intelligent and rational argument I can think of with my anti-2A friends (yes, I can still be friends with folks who believe differently than I do), and my head is about ready to explode. And I admit I'm a dumbass for trying to reason with closed minded folks. But just maybe I can open some eyes and minds along the way.

    Non-gun folks (in many cases) just don't have the life experience, or Constitutional concerns, to appreciate how far our rights have been eroded. And while I think we all have a common goal of reducing innocent victims of crime, and especially keeping guns out of the hands of folks who just shouldn't have them in the first place, we certainly have different ways to get there.

    With all of the current emotional hysteria to ban bump stocks and AR type rifles, right now I'm trying to craft some different approaches that might relate to the hobbies that my friends enjoy that aren't firearm related. Here's what I've got so far, and I encourage everyone to help craft a longer, more complete and more convincing list. I deliberately omitted any reference to the 2A in the lists.



    Trying to come up with parallel arguments against more gun control

    Relating to cars:

    How would you feel if engine size were limited to four cylinders?
    How would you feel if you could only own certain brands or models? And it was illegal to buy, sell or trade banned models?
    How would you feel if the vehicle’s speed were electronically limited to the posted speed limit? Okay now, no Lone Ranger jokes. :nono:
    How would you feel about mandatory alcohol breathalyzers to start the car?
    How would you feel about a mandatory electronic block against all cell phone communication by the driver?
    How would you feel about a limit on the size of the fuel tank to only allow a range of 100 miles?


    Relating to powerboats:

    How would you feel if the maximum engine size were limited to just getting the boat up on a plane?
    How would you feel if there were a mandatory life jacket requirement for ALL passengers to wear one if the boat is underway?
    How would you feel about a limit on the size of your fuel tank?
    How would you feel about a ban on certain boat types, like ski boats? Or jet skis?


    Relating to the First Amendment?

    How would you feel about not being able to speak your mind on religious matters?
    How would you feel about restrictions on what you could post online?
    How would you feel about censorship of everything that is published in the media, to only allow what the government approves?


    Other hobbies?

    1st...Do not accept this argument because driving and having a car is not a constitutional right!

    2nd...Use the right to Vote as an equivalent!
     

    Perfessor

    Newbie
    Mar 6, 2017
    60
    Anne Arundel
    I really want some help from you guys. I have tried just about every intelligent and rational argument I can think of with my anti-2A friends (yes, I can still be friends with folks who believe differently than I do), and my head is about ready to explode. And I admit I'm a dumbass for trying to reason with closed minded folks. But just maybe I can open some eyes and minds along the way.

    Non-gun folks (in many cases) just don't have the life experience, or Constitutional concerns, to appreciate how far our rights have been eroded. And while I think we all have a common goal of reducing innocent victims of crime, and especially keeping guns out of the hands of folks who just shouldn't have them in the first place, we certainly have different ways to get there.

    With all of the current emotional hysteria to ban bump stocks and AR type rifles, right now I'm trying to craft some different approaches that might relate to the hobbies that my friends enjoy that aren't firearm related. Here's what I've got so far, and I encourage everyone to help craft a longer, more complete and more convincing list. I deliberately omitted any reference to the 2A in the lists.



    Trying to come up with parallel arguments against more gun control

    Relating to cars:

    How would you feel if engine size were limited to four cylinders?
    How would you feel if you could only own certain brands or models? And it was illegal to buy, sell or trade banned models?
    How would you feel if the vehicle’s speed were electronically limited to the posted speed limit? Okay now, no Lone Ranger jokes. :nono:
    How would you feel about mandatory alcohol breathalyzers to start the car?
    How would you feel about a mandatory electronic block against all cell phone communication by the driver?
    How would you feel about a limit on the size of the fuel tank to only allow a range of 100 miles?


    Relating to powerboats:

    How would you feel if the maximum engine size were limited to just getting the boat up on a plane?
    How would you feel if there were a mandatory life jacket requirement for ALL passengers to wear one if the boat is underway?
    How would you feel about a limit on the size of your fuel tank?
    How would you feel about a ban on certain boat types, like ski boats? Or jet skis?


    Relating to the First Amendment?

    How would you feel about not being able to speak your mind on religious matters?
    How would you feel about restrictions on what you could post online?
    How would you feel about censorship of everything that is published in the media, to only allow what the government approves?


    Other hobbies?


    As others have already pointed out in this thread, many people who are anti-gun are not arguing from logic & reason but are instead simply afraid of guns and are attacking the personification/realization of their fears.

    If you are trying to reason with a friend, then you probably have a better shot than if you are trying to convince a random person. Here is what has worked for me.

    1. Get them to set the direction of the discussion: ask him/her why they want (certain) guns outlawed. The answer is usually of the variety "they're dangerous and/or unnecessary." I.e., the same reason we disallow widespread possession of automatic weapons.

    2. Make him/her examine their response. Question it from multiple angles, like, "why do you think that?" "what effect do you think it will have?" "what problems will it solve and why?" "why do you think it will work?" etc.

    3. By questioning them (nicely) and focusing on their point of view before going to yours, you're trying to get the person to justify their position using data, logic, and reason. If they can only justify their position through answers that boil down to "I think guns are bad," then you're dealing with someone who has an emotional attachment to their argument, and they won't give it up. If they go toward *data* however (e.g., "place XYZ got rid of guns, and deaths went down five-fold"), then you can convince them, because the data is on your side, not theirs, and they've just shown you that they can be convinced through data.

    4. Once you know you've got them thinking, reasoning, you can bring out the logical arguments, like "when the data says 'gun deaths' it includes lots of stuff like suicides, which is the majority, and so actual homicides is a small percent," and "the data shows that gun-free zones have more violent crime than places where private gun ownership is high ..." and then trot out whatever figures you want, like Maryland vs. Virginia (this awesome white-haired guy taking my ID at DARPA laughed at me when he asked me if I had any firearms with me, I said "no," and he looked at my MD driver's license and said, basically "yeah, you sure don't bahahahahaha suckers!") or Baltimore/Chicago vs. other cities, or even at the international level. All the data shows that the *only* places with high rates of violent crime *also* have low per-capita gun ownership.

    I've managed to convince a few people with this, but it only works if they are open-minded. Good luck!
     

    Ammo Jon

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 3, 2008
    20,787
    Do you love your children?

    Would you give your life protecting them?

    Would you take a life to protect them?

    How?

    They thrive on emotions and feelings, kids are the Achilles heel for most parents. I know you come up the steps to where my family is and the next thing you’ll feel is 9 pellets of 00 coming through your body.
     
    Jan 14, 2013
    225
    Millersville, MD
    I don't know how to do this. Literally told that inalienable rights are imaginary and it is time to have sanity instead. If people who know me personally feel less safe if I had a gun instead of safer, then I don't know what to say about that.
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,156
    Some people have a gun phobia (ie an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.) you can not reach such people with logic. Until they admit to having a problem and a desire to overcome it you will waste your words and probably harden their resolve.

    Some others will listen to reason see the Perfessor's post above for a good explanation.

    The next group the undecided you can actually make into decided gun gun supporters. Introduce them to guns and take them shooting they just need some guidance in the right direction.

    The final group are the people on the other side who want to control everyone. They don't believe the BS they spread but they will keep spreading it to gain an advantage for themselves.
     

    Mr. Ed

    This IS my Happy Face
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2009
    7,899
    Edgewater
    Many thanks to everyone who offered constructive thoughts! :thumbsup:

    Sometimes it feels like living the definition of insanity: Trying to achieve different results given the same parameters. I'm still trying, though. :rolleyes:
     

    JoeRinMD

    Rifleman
    Jul 18, 2008
    2,014
    AA County
    Some people have a gun phobia (ie an extreme or irrational fear of or aversion to something.) you can not reach such people with logic. Until they admit to having a problem and a desire to overcome it you will waste your words and probably harden their resolve.

    I had an experience at Thanksgiving this past November. My wife's step-brother was down from CT with his wife and son. I was showing them my new workshop, which is adjacent to the gun room. When I opened a safe to show them something, he ran out of the room like I was spraying a toxic substance. I wondered if I had misunderstood, but when I asked my son about it, he said "Yeah...that was weird!" He's actively anti-gun in his FB postings, but now I'm sure it's a deeply rooted phobia. No amount of logic would ever work with someone like that, where just being in the same room with a firearm results in a visceral "flight" reaction.

    JoeR
     

    Blacksmith101

    Grumpy Old Man
    Jun 22, 2012
    22,156
    I had an experience at Thanksgiving this past November. My wife's step-brother was down from CT with his wife and son. I was showing them my new workshop, which is adjacent to the gun room. When I opened a safe to show them something, he ran out of the room like I was spraying a toxic substance. I wondered if I had misunderstood, but when I asked my son about it, he said "Yeah...that was weird!" He's actively anti-gun in his FB postings, but now I'm sure it's a deeply rooted phobia. No amount of logic would ever work with someone like that, where just being in the same room with a firearm results in a visceral "flight" reaction.

    JoeR

    You need to take the son shooting sometime so he doesn't become like his father. Although it might cause a family rift.
     

    JoeRinMD

    Rifleman
    Jul 18, 2008
    2,014
    AA County
    You need to take the son shooting sometime so he doesn't become like his father. Although it might cause a family rift.

    Yes, I thought of doing exactly that, but there were just down from CT for the Thanksgiving weekend and didn't have time to get it done. I agree wholeheartedly with the intent. So many kids of that generation have grown up with Call of Duty and other games, they almost salivate when given an opportunity to shoot the real guns rather than a pretend version on the game console. I firmly believe this is the way to assure that the 2nd Amendment will be around, by getting the next generation involved and for them to realize that just seeing a real gun doesn't turn them into a mass-murderer.

    JoeR
     

    Swaim13

    Active Member
    Jun 11, 2017
    327
    Politifacts may not explicitly help with a 2A argument, but it is more of an unbiased fact check that lays out the data in black and white terms and states the sources and assumptions. You can use some of the numbers in the various articles to help your argument and also eliminate some of theirs. Its also nice to be able to point them to something that they will believe.

    http://www.politifact.com/subjects/guns/statements/
     

    Sthomas229

    none
    MDS Supporter
    May 7, 2009
    6,659
    Laurel, MD
    2a was meant for muskets just like 1a was meant for quill and parchment. So no internet, Facebook, Twitter, blocking streets, your choice of clothing, or leaving school.

    The 2nd refers to the right to "keep and bare arms". "Arms does not only refer to guns. "Arms" refers to anything that can be used to defend yourself.
    A sword 2000 years ago, a musket in revolutionary times, an AR-15 today or a "phased plasma rifle in 40 watt range" sometime in the future.
     

    r3t1awr3yd

    Meh.
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 14, 2010
    4,721
    Bowie, MD
    Every time I've had an argument with someone who was really listening, it usually ended with me saying that laws don't change anything. We create them to create consequences but they can't prevent anything because humans are unpredictable at best. We can always change our mind. We can always do evil or good. Our free will is uncontrollable by anything but our own mind.

    Then people ask "What can we do?"

    And I always answer with the same answer: "Talk to your neighbors". People have forgotten how powerful it is to just say Hi to someone. Just acknowledge a persons existence even if they're not the type of person you'd normally say anything to. There is some weird connection that's activated when you reach out to another person with no agenda except to see how they're really doing in this adventure we call life. The government SUCKS at reaching out to people but WE, THE PEOPLE are pretty darned great at it when we do it. Will that connection stop all shootings? No, of course not. The hell-bent on evil types will do what they're going to do but maybe a conversation will make them change their mind. Maybe a reminder that we're all in this together will be enough for them to see that what they might have done was a horrible decision.

    It might sound hokey but human nature hasn't changed in thousands of years and all of the technology and everything we have won't change it either. We're still the same animals with the same needs.

    tldr: Rainbows and Unicorns
     

    camobob

    Active Member
    Feb 18, 2013
    482
    I agree wholeheartedly with this^^
    My best approach has been to tackle the problem of listening. Is it possible for people who believe different thins to talk? Can you hear my beliefs without feeling threatened or trying to change me?
    The answer is always yes but the first sentence usually screams no. Keep going back - there is no conversation if the other person's beliefs are 'wrong'. Hope you do better than I have
     

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