Flat Primers??

I saw some H1000 powder in the store the other day so i bought a pound to give it a spin in my 300 win mag.

Consulted a few manuals including their website, loaded an OCW set and went to the range. I stopped after firing my first 3 rounds, which were under the max charge for that powder and bullet. I stopped, because the primers looked flatter than anything I've seen. The primers also have a crater/rim to them. Never seen this before. There's also a polished spot on the case head. i presume from the bolt.

Can anyone confirm what i'm seeing.. give me a piece of mind that these ARE being flattened and should be pulled??

Flat and cratered!
Don't know the cause, but yes, I'd pull them and start over. Maybe your scale went berserk and you didn't see it?

primers

looks like overpressure to me , how long are you loading ? if the book shows a load for that powder and you are under something else must be going on. when my ar starts cratering primers i stop .

Still fairly new to reloading myself, but it looks like over-pressure signs to me. The mark on the cases look like an impression of the ejector. I would pull that batch.

newby myself whats the puker on the rim or is it a poker

over pressure....

case No. 1 top left
primer crater, looks like brass "flowed" into the bolt face
notice the mark between the R and P (extractor)

case No.2 middle left once again look at the "R"
same thing as above

case No.3 right around the "300" nice shiny area

all 3 cases show over pressure case 1 and 2 show more
cratering than the 3rd case. Yes the "shiny" spots are from
when you lift the bolt. the other marks are from the brass
"flowing" around the bolt head. get some mic's and
measure around the "belt"

check cases around the "belt" also

Firearm used?
Load details please???
Compressed load?
Bullet weight? is it really the one the powder charge is for...
Overcharged?
bullet seated to deep?
Bullet seated to long (jamming it into the rifling)
Effort to close the bolt when chambering the round
Effort of lifting the bolt to extract the "loaded round"
Effort of extracting fired case.
Bolt effort required to open bolt. Lift it.
Excessive lube left on cases.

one last ?? is the OCW first 3 shots the low end of the
node? if so and the others are increasing up you may
have some serious problems ahead..
if were me I'd be doing some measurements, weighing,
and even pulling some to double check, and probably
pull all of them. Just to be "safe" but hey that's me
there are many things that would cause ove pressure.



-Rock

Something isn't right there. I would double check several things to include the bullets to make sure they are the correct weight and COAL.

There are definitely extractor marks on the top two. The top one is quite pronounced. I'd double check my scale. I use both the check weight and also weigh a bullet or two at the start of every session. That might seem anal, but it only takes a minute.
I only have one box of bullets and one bottle of powder out at a time. 40 years of reloading and I've made mistakes I don't want to repeat.
A collet type bullet puller has saved my hide many a time.
And OAL. Make sure the bullet isn't jammed into the lands.

K-43 said:

There are definitely extractor marks on the top two. The top one is quite pronounced. I'd double check my scale. I use both the check weight and also weigh a bullet or two at the start of every session. That might seem anal, but it only takes a minute.
I only have one box of bullets and one bottle of powder out at a time. 40 years of reloading and I've made mistakes I don't want to repeat.
A collet type bullet puller has saved my hide many a time.

Click to expand...

same amount of time here... made mistakes also, one thing I've
learned in doubt "pull it" not "shoot it", had the "hammer type" first
bullet puller then collet.

Very good point on scale / check weights a must...
One powder, one bullet, one primer....stay focused

Your body parts and gun will appreciate it as well as your shooting neighbors.


-Rock

Rockzilla said:

over pressure....

case No. 1 top left
primer crater, looks like brass "flowed into the bolt face
notice the mark between the R and P (extractor)

case No.2 middle left once again look at the "R"
same thing as above

case No.3 right around the "300" nice shiny area

all 3 cases show over pressure case 1 and 2 show more
cratering than the 3rd case. Yes the "shiny" spots are from
when you lift the bolt. the other marks are from the brass
"flowing" around the bolt head. get some mic's and
measure around the "belt"

check cases around the "belt" also

Firearm used?
Load details please???
Compressed load?
Bullet weight? is it really the one the powder charge is for...
Overcharged?
bullet seated to deep?
Bullet seated to long (jamming it into the rifling)
Effort to close the bolt when chambering the round
Effort of lifting the bolt to extract the "loaded round"
Effort of extracting fired case.
Bolt effort required to open bolt. Lift it.
Excessive lube left on cases.

one last ?? is the OCW first 3 shots the low end of the
node? if so and the others are increasing up you may
have some serious problems ahead..
if were me I'd be doing some measurements, weighing,
and even pulling some to double check, and probably
pull all of them. Just to be "safe" but hey that's me
there are many things that would cause ove pressure.



-Rock

Click to expand...

To Rock’s observations I’d add to check cases for excessive length, check chamber for excess carbon buildup, and to throw it out there if rounds were by chance shot today in the rain...were chamber or cases by any chance wet when these rounds were fired?

All of the above, is why i stopped. Something wasn't adding up but i had also not seen flattened primers before so wanted to make sure THIS is what it looks like. Then upon closer inspection (and fingers no longer being numb) i felt the cratering.

my "regular" load for this rifle is is fine.

First, i'm going to pull them and start over.. i'll verify the charge as i pull them. there's a reason i have a puller right? Time to use it.

Firearm used? - savage 110ba stealth (maybe 400 rounds thru it total)
Load details please??? - H1000 powder, doing an OCW load test. These three were 77.6gr.
Compressed load? -- nope close to max load but not compressed.
Bullet weight? is it really the one the powder charge is for... -- 220gr NOT the same bullet as listing, only the same weight (perhaps this is a key issue) these are 220gr ELD-X.
Overcharged? -- maybe.. see the above?
bullet seated to deep? -- seated same depth as my other load which doesn't show pressure issues. I loaded to the lands then seated a little deeper to keep it from hitting lands on loading.
Bullet seated to long (jamming it into the rifling) -- negative, see the above.
Effort to close the bolt when chambering the round -- not like an empty chamber but a toddler could do it. similar to other rounds/loads for same rifle.
Effort of lifting the bolt to extract the "loaded round" -- not like an empty chamber but a toddler could do it. similar to other rounds/loads for same rifle.
Effort of extracting fired case. -- "as normal" didn't have to mortor it or anything.
Bolt effort required to open bolt. Lift it. -- slightly harder than my other loads, but not like an old mosin nagant. didn't have to change seating position to get more leverage to open bolt.
Excessive lube left on cases. -- i use case lube wax on a mat. roll it on them. After the rounds are loaded, i rub the lube off w/ a cloth. which also cleans off any residual cleaning material residue.


I'll pull them all, weigh the charges and the bullets. And try 2-3 more on the very low end of the scale for H1000. i SUSPECT.. it's something to do w/ the seating depth... like not all admins are created alike, not all "220gr" are created alike.

Uncle Duke said:

To Rock’s observations I’d add to check cases for excessive length, check chamber for excess carbon buildup, and to throw it out there if rounds were by chance shot today in the rain...were chamber or cases by any chance wet when these rounds were fired?

Click to expand...

I tumble clean (clay media) then clean the flash hole, trim them, debur and chamfer each round. These are once fired (bought them new and reloaded them one time before) and all the same type. It takes forever but, i wanted a consistant and to minimize variables. After the rounds are loaded. i take an old shirt and rub off any remaining resizing lube and store them in an ammo box.

The range is covered (AGC) and was not raining that day.

Moorvogi said:

All of the above, is why i stopped. Something wasn't adding up but i had also not seen flattened primers before so wanted to make sure THIS is what it looks like. Then upon closer inspection (and fingers no longer being numb) i felt the cratering.

my "regular" load for this rifle is is fine.

First, i'm going to pull them and start over.. i'll verify the charge as i pull them. there's a reason i have a puller right? Time to use it.

Firearm used? - savage 110ba stealth (maybe 400 rounds thru it total)
Load details please??? - H1000 powder, doing an OCW load test. These three were 77.6gr.
Compressed load? -- nope close to max load but not compressed.
Bullet weight? is it really the one the powder charge is for... -- 220gr NOT the same bullet as listing, only the same weight (perhaps this is a key issue) these are 220gr ELD-X.
Overcharged? -- maybe.. see the above?
bullet seated to deep? -- seated same depth as my other load which doesn't show pressure issues. I loaded to the lands then seated a little deeper to keep it from hitting lands on loading.
Bullet seated to long (jamming it into the rifling) -- negative, see the above.
Effort to close the bolt when chambering the round -- not like an empty chamber but a toddler could do it. similar to other rounds/loads for same rifle.
Effort of lifting the bolt to extract the "loaded round" -- not like an empty chamber but a toddler could do it. similar to other rounds/loads for same rifle.
Effort of extracting fired case. -- "as normal" didn't have to mortor it or anything.
Bolt effort required to open bolt. Lift it. -- slightly harder than my other loads, but not like an old mosin nagant. didn't have to change seating position to get more leverage to open bolt.
Excessive lube left on cases. -- i use case lube wax on a mat. roll it on them. After the rounds are loaded, i rub the lube off w/ a cloth. which also cleans off any residual cleaning material residue.


I'll pull them all, weigh the charges and the bullets. And try 2-3 more on the very low end of the scale for H1000. i SUSPECT.. it's something to do w/ the seating depth... like not all admins are created alike, not all "220gr" are created alike.

Click to expand...

thanks for the nfo, if the bolt is a little harder it would be from the brass
flowing around the bolt head, extractors.
Others have "touched on this" cases all to trim to spec.
another good one was were they "wet".

and you are correct all 220gr bullets are not equal "ogive"
or to "Tangent, Secant, Hybrid Ogive Bullets" gotta stop reading
"Bryan Litz" books

-Rock

Moorvogi said:

Compressed load? -- nope close to max load but not compressed.
Bullet weight? is it really the one the powder charge is for... -- 220gr NOT the same bullet.

Click to expand...

This is a perfect example of why your supposed the start at the "Starting Loads" and not the the other way around.

I'm curious. I wonder if you have a bad batch of powder? H1000 is so slow, I used to use a kicker charge of Bullseye and a case full when shooting cast bullets in 8mm Mausers back in the day. I have never seen it act like your examples.

Op, you’ve likely touched upon the problem. That is, same weight, but different bullet.

General rule of thumb here with a different than specified bullet is to back off 10% off max charge listed, and work up. Even though bullet weighs the same, you could be encountering different construction, ogive difference, jacket thickness differences etc.

Hornady #10 lists your 220 grain Hornady ELD-X with a MAXIMUM charge of 75.3 grains. You’re running in excess of published max. Back off to about 68 grains and gradually work your way up.

There was some H1000 that caused problems year or so ago. Guy I know sheared off a bolt lug with a load he had been using for years, when he started a new bottle.

Use starting load as stated above.

Good luck

Jerry

Uncle Duke said:

Op, you’ve likely touched upon the problem. That is, same weight, but different bullet.

Click to expand...

Could well be. Greater bearing surface, harder core, greater friction of the jacket material.....

OCW method also starts 10% off listed Max charge.

Loads are definitely over pressure, by a good margin. Reason unknown, but probably at least in part due to the pretty stiff charge...

Trigger Tuner said:

This is a perfect example of why your supposed the start at the "Starting Loads" and not the the other way around.

Click to expand...

Trigger Tuner said:

This is a perfect example of why your supposed the start at the "Starting Loads" and not the the other way around.

Click to expand...

Absolutely and well worth repeating.

The load listed above is just about maximum in my own rifle, for a 208 A-Max.

K-43 said:

Could well be. Greater bearing Remove Text Formattingsurface, harder core, greater friction of the jacket material.....

Click to expand...

Yes, any number of variables that could contribute to unexpected pressure excursions and why one should always start low and carefully work upward while watching for issues.