Old powder issue??

Moorvogi · Dec 26, 2018

I have some powder that was given to my by my father in law. Normally i wouldn't trust powder from "average joe" but this was my father in law. Still... exercising some caution because of what i'm going to share next.

It's UNIQUE powder, and i got a squib load.. I get a squib about every 200-300 rounds so i quit using it.

Then i got into shotgun reloading and bam.. same powder! MOST of the time, it's fine.. but every once in a while (more than i would like to admit) it goes POP instead of BANG. You see the lead shot spirtz out the end like confetti at some Chinese street festival and the wad passes by like a rabbit in the sky.

Typically, all I do is validate the chamber is clear by keeping the chamber open and dropping a bambo stick down the muzzle like a muzzle loader.

Can someone share with me.. what else COULD go wrong with using this old powder? Could it explode a 2nd time, mid barrel? how dangerous is this powder in a shotgun.

I got tired of squib loads in pistols.. figured 20gr (give or take) per 12g is going to use it faster than pistol rounds.

bigcountry · Dec 26, 2018

Powder breaks down and rots. If its bad, it should smell like rotton eggs. I too have thrown out unique. Because i only use 5gr for some stuff. And only 10gr for 44mag. so it take years to use up.

The big danger is getting a bullet stuck in the barrel, and then shooting another round behind. But shotgun, shouldn't be an issue. Especially for an over under or side by side.

madmantrapper · Dec 26, 2018

I have unique that is at least 15 years old and have had no trouble with it.

Muleskinner · Dec 26, 2018

If you decide to discard it smokeless powder makes great plant food...lots of nitrogen.

Rockzilla · Dec 26, 2018

madmantrapper said:
I have unique that is at least 15 years old and have had no trouble with it.

Same here got powders from the early 80's even some no longer made
ex: WW-630 makes some great full house loads in the 357 mag. old IMR
powders in metal cans. Primers from the 80's all still work, even found
a bunch of .38 spl brass I primed way back all still go "pow"

Muleskinner said:
If you decide to discard it smokeless powder makes great plant food...lots of nitrogen.

makes good lawn "food" also...

-Rock

Biggfoot44 · Dec 26, 2018

I believe it's SAAMI that has a checklist of signs of deteriorated powder, and probably also every powder mfg/ distributor .

That said , how old is old ? If nothing else the style of container will indicate the era . If stored under halfway decent conditions, powder will last a long time .

Moorvogi · Dec 26, 2018

it's stored in a thick black jug.. from the factory. No idea how new old it is.. atm. i just use it for 12g reloads that occasionally go POP instead of BANG. they go in a special box so i don't mix them up.. and i check the barrel for clear every time. probably shot 600-700 rounds.. only a few more pounds to go. about.. 5,000 rounds worth... HAHHAHA

bigcountry · Dec 26, 2018

madmantrapper said:
I have unique that is at least 15 years old and have had no trouble with it.

Most of that depends on storage. Dry and cool.

Aamdskeetshooter · Dec 26, 2018

How much do you have? A couple of pounds? Is it worth blowing up a gun and/or injuring you or someone else? Does the wad stay in the barrel on the bad shell? A buddy of mine blew up an o/u barrel because he forgot to remove a wad after a bad shell. It could’ve been a lot worse if he was shooting a pump or auto.
The other concern is a possible hang fire.
From Wikipedia:
Hang fire refers to an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant.[1] This failure was common in firearm actions that relied on open primer pans, due to the poor or inconsistent quality of the powder. Modern firearms are susceptible also. The delay is usually too brief to be noticed, but can be several seconds.

I’ve seen a hang fire that was a good 15 seconds after trigger pull.

Powder can last 20+ years if it is kept dry and cool. My guess is it has some moisture in it.

Art3 · Dec 26, 2018

Aamdskeetshooter said:
How much do you have? A couple of pounds? Is it worth blowing up a gun and/or injuring you or someone else? Does the wad stay in the barrel on the bad shell? A buddy of mine blew up an o/u barrel because he forgot to remove a wad after a bad shell. It could’ve been a lot worse if he was shooting a pump or auto.
The other concern is a possible hang fire.
From Wikipedia:
Hang fire refers to an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant.[1] This failure was common in firearm actions that relied on open primer pans, due to the poor or inconsistent quality of the powder. Modern firearms are susceptible also. The delay is usually too brief to be noticed, but can be several seconds.

I’ve seen a hang fire that was a good 15 seconds after trigger pull.

Powder can last 20+ years if it is kept dry and cool. My guess is it has some moisture in it.

He beat me to it by a minute. I was going to ask what a couple of pounds of powder went for these days, versus the cost of a new barrel (or worse), divided by the peace of mind of knowing that your firearms will work when you need them to.

Pinecone · Dec 27, 2018

Black plastic jug is not that old.

Old is metal cans. Really old is fiber cans.

From http://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/how-to-determine-gunpowder-shelf-life/83922# :

You can tell if a can of powder is good or bad by giving its contents a sniff test. If the smell ranges from no detectable odor to resembling alcohol, ether or acetone (from its solvent content), it is okay. If you get a terribly unpleasant, acidic odor that fries your nasal passages, extreme deterioration has taken place. The odor is difficult to describe, but my nose says the experience is quite a bit like taking a strong whiff of the fumes produced by muriatic acid.

Any change — regardless of whether it is physical, chemical or otherwise — indicates time for disposal. If a brown or rust-colored fume escapes from the container when you open it, the powder is unsuitable for use. The plastic cap on one of the containers of powder that went bad on me was originally blue in color, and the chemical changes that took place inside had actually bleached it snow white. Sudden rusting of the metal cap of a container is also a sure sign of bad things going on inside.

If you suddenly begin to experience wide shot-to-shot variations in velocity or a noticeable reduction in velocity of a favorite load, the can of powder you are using may not gone completely bad, but it will probably get there sooner than later. Although quite rare, it is possible for powder to deteriorate to the point of self-ignition — another reason for occasionally giving each opened container in your reloading room the sniff test.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 27, 2018

Fiber cans were in use until relatively recently . Several different graphic designs over different time periods . The square metal cans go back to 1900 .

Actually , in 1900, it was Lafkin& Rand Unique . There were various powder companies bought out/ merged , and in 1912 Hercules Powder Co became a thing , and continued with the L & R product line of canister powders .

And for today's minor trivia , Unique is the second oldest smokless powder in continous production . The L & R , later Hercules Bullseye from 1898 is oldest .

Moorvogi · Dec 27, 2018

Art3 said:
He beat me to it by a minute. I was going to ask what a couple of pounds of powder went for these days, versus the cost of a new barrel (or worse), divided by the peace of mind of knowing that your firearms will work when you need them to.

I see your point, but even if it was.. say.. 32 lbs of powder... i didn't pay anything for it. the people who originally bought it have passed away. I just have a mental block that makes me cry a little inside when i think of 32 pounds of powder going to become grass food.

Typically, when the 12g squibs.. i just drop a powder coated cast bullet (230gr) down the barrel to verify the wad isn't in there. This is also assuming it's not a hang fire. Familiar w/ the term, never had it happen but i wouldn't do this tactic to clear a hang fire!

I don't hunt w/ the 12g nor do any shooting other than private land @ clay pigeons.

In short, as long as i'm not doing tacticool weapons clearing and shoving another round down the pipe.. i dont see any issues w/ keeping it pointed in a safe direction and giggle at the confetti lead that comes out the end about 50 feet past the barrel. It doesn't trickle out, but you can clearly see the shot.

The question/concern was more along the lines of.. would/could there be a secondary ignition in the barrel due to poor initial ignition. To which, said secondary ignition would cause bigger issues. It sounds like NO, but be careful anyway.

Moorvogi · Dec 27, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Fiber cans were in use until relatively recently . Several different graphic designs over different time periods . The square metal cans go back to 1900 .

Actually , in 1900, it was Lafkin& Rand Unique . There were various powder companies bought out/ merged , and in 1912 Hercules Powder Co became a thing , and continued with the L & R product line of canister powders .

And for today's minor trivia , Unique is the second oldest smokless powder in continous production . The L & R , later Hercules Bullseye from 1898 is oldest .

i do have some old BULLSEYE that's in this cardboard cylinder type thing. The neck extends and collapses when you open it.

I HAD some 3031 and 4350 in those old DUPONT/IMR metal cans. Those things were a riot.

Aamdskeetshooter · Dec 27, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Fiber cans were in use until relatively recently . Several different graphic designs over different time periods . The square metal cans go back to 1900 .

Actually , in 1900, it was Lafkin& Rand Unique . There were various powder companies bought out/ merged , and in 1912 Hercules Powder Co became a thing , and continued with the L & R product line of canister powders .

And for today's minor trivia , Unique is the second oldest smokless powder in continous production . The L & R , later Hercules Bullseye from 1898 is oldest .

I remember buying Red Dot in fiber cardboard cans in the early 90’s.

K-43 · Dec 28, 2018

So what is your threshold for squibs? When will you determine the powder is past its useful life? Will you be back asking if it's still safe to use when you get to 1 in 100? Are you really looking for an answer as to when the powder should be condemned or seeking affirmation of a course you've already picked? Not trying to be an a-hole, but it's deteriorating. Dump it and move on.
1 Squib every 200 - 300 rounds would condemn it in lot testing.
When in doubt, pour it out.

Pinecone · Dec 28, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
Fiber cans were in use until relatively recently . Several different graphic designs over different time periods . The square metal cans go back to 1900 .

Actually , in 1900, it was Lafkin& Rand Unique . There were various powder companies bought out/ merged , and in 1912 Hercules Powder Co became a thing , and continued with the L & R product line of canister powders .

And for today's minor trivia , Unique is the second oldest smokless powder in continous production . The L & R , later Hercules Bullseye from 1898 is oldest .

What came in fiber cans recently? I have not bought anything in fiber cans since the 70s. I still have a few fiber cans of powder. IMR came in a can like paint thinner can. I am thinking that Hodgdon already had plastic containers, I was buying H335 by the pound.

The 80s and 90s were round metal cans, at least for WW, which is most of what I shot (WW231 for pistol and WW748 for .308). Hodgdon was definitely round plastic by the 90s.

Pinecone · Dec 28, 2018

Moorvogi said:
i do have some old BULLSEYE that's in this cardboard cylinder type thing. The neck extends and collapses when you open it.

I HAD some 3031 and 4350 in those old DUPONT/IMR metal cans. Those things were a riot.

That is a later container with the spout. Before that, it was just a plastic disk that snapped in. And they you had to figure out how to pour it without making a mess.

Biggfoot44 · Dec 28, 2018

So, what about them primers ?

Moorvogi · Dec 28, 2018

Biggfoot44 said:
So, what about them primers ?

I thought more about the primers and while it COULD be that, i dont think so because i bought new primers for pistol ammo using the same powder a while back. Those were squib loads.

that being said, 2 weeks ago i shot 750 rounds w/ the same powder... new primers.. no issues.

Old powder issue??

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