What causes this?

Traveler · Mar 21, 2013

RichB said:
My money is on not enough lube on the case, you were lucky it didn't get stuck.

Nothing worse than not having enough lube.

Traveler · Mar 21, 2013

Jokes aside, my eyes see PMC on that brass. Those are civilian .223 cases. I just deprimed and reprimed a bunch on my Dillon 550B. No issues at all. No swager needed for those.

kalister1 · Mar 21, 2013

I use an old 4 hole Lee Turret press, from E-Bay.
When I bought it, it came with a double ended primer arm, large and small.
I have upgraded to a new Post/Ram, whatever you call the main rod.
It now has a primer arm that rides inside the ram. I had lots of ruined primers with my old system and very few if any with the new ram.

http://leeprecision.com/priming-tools/on-press-priming/

Look at the picture on the right, that is what my new primer device looks like. It rides inside the ram.

r3t1awr3yd · Mar 21, 2013

I have the one on the right already, just haven't mounted it. I've been putting them on their by gloved hand, one at a time. I take a lot of time and pay a lot of attention when loading .223.

Traveler · Mar 21, 2013

r3t1awr3yd said:
I have the one on the right already, just haven't mounted it. I've been putting them on their by gloved hand, one at a time. I take a lot of time and pay a lot of attention when loading .223.

Heck if you want to try an experiment, drop by my place one day and see if my Dillon seats them okay for you. I can prime a crap load fast on the 550B.

kalister1 · Mar 21, 2013

I usually push the case back into the shell holder with light finger pressure. Sometimes the case is not centered well, the primer pocket does not line up with the hole in the Shell Holder if I don't give it a little push. The primer should just slide right up in there without any resistance until it almost all the way in.

r3t1awr3yd · Mar 21, 2013

kalister1 said:
I usually push the case back into the shell holder with light finger pressure. Sometimes the case is not centered well, the primer pocket does not line up with the hole in the Shell Holder if I don't give it a little push. The primer should just slide right up in there without any resistance until it almost all the way in.

I didn't notice this being an issue till the second one that I ran across like this. I didn't think the case would fall that out of line with the holder.

Traveler said:
Heck if you want to try an experiment, drop by my place one day and see if my Dillon seats them okay for you. I can prime a crap load fast on the 550B.

When I've finished my first thousand .223, I'll check out your setup. Until then, it's slow and steady

Traveler · Mar 21, 2013

r3t1awr3yd said:
I didn't notice this being an issue till the second one that I ran across like this. I didn't think the case would fall that out of line with the holder.

When I've finished my first thousand .223, I'll check out your setup. Until then, it's slow and steady

It's just a 550, it doesn't bite. Just offering for troubleshooting purposes. You could just prime them, and do the rest by hand. The offer stands.

FlatsFlite · Mar 21, 2013

rwbow1969 said:
.223 Remington vs. 5.56 NATO: What You Don’t Know Could Hurt You

By: Human Events
2/15/2011 03:01 AM

RESIZE: AAA

Print

203

Is firing a 5.56 NATO cartridge in your .223 Remington chambered AR15 dangerous? Or do Internet forum-ninjas and ammunition companies selling you commercial ammo instead of surplus overstate the dangers? Believe it or not, a real danger exists, and some gun owners who think they are doing the right thing may not be safe.

The Cartridges

The .223 Remington and 5.56×45 NATO cartridges are very similar, and externally appear the same. But there are some differences that lie beneath the surface.

The 5.56 case has thicker walls to handle higher pressures, meaning the interior volume of the case is smaller than that of a .223. This will alter the loading data used when reloading 5.56 brass to .223 specs.

Some 5.56 loads have a slightly longer overall length than commercial .223 loads.

The Chambers

The significant difference between the .223 Rem and 5.56 NATO lies in the rifles, rather than the cartridges themselves. Both the .223 and 5.56 rounds will chamber in rifles designed for either cartridge, but the critical component, leade, will be different in each rifle.

The leade is the area of the barrel in front of the chamber prior to where the rifling begins. This is where the loaded bullet is located when a cartridge is chambered. The leade is frequently called the “throat.”

On a .223 Remington spec rifle, the leade will be 0.085”. This is the standard described by the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute, Inc. (SAAMI). The leade in a 5.56 NATO spec rifle is 0.162”, or almost double the leade of the .223 rifle.

A shorter leade in a SAAMI spec rifle creates a situation where the bullet in a 5.56 NATO round, when chambered, can contact the rifling prior to being fired. By having contact with the rifling prematurely (at the moment of firing), chamber pressure can be dramatically increased, creating the danger of a ruptured case or other cartridge/gun failure.

The reverse situation, a .223 Rem round in a 5.56 NATO gun, isn’t dangerous. The leade is longer, so a slight loss in velocity and accuracy may be experienced, but there is not a danger of increased pressures and subsequent catastrophic failure.

How serious is the danger of firing 5.56 ammo in .223 guns? Dangerous enough that the SAAMI lists 5.56 military ammo as being not for use in .223 firearms in the technical data sheet titled “Unsafe Firearm-Ammunition Combinations.”

ATK, the parent company of ammunition manufacturers Federal Cartridge Company and Speer, published a bulletin entitled “The Difference Between 223 Rem and 5.56 Military Cartridges.” In this bulletin, ATK stated using 5.56 ammo in a .223 rifle could result in “…primer pocket gas leaks, blown cartridge case heads, and gun functioning issues.”

However, the danger may be lower than SAAMI or ATK suggest. In Technical Note #74 from ArmaLite, the company states “millions of rounds of NATO ammunition have been fired safely in Eagle Arms and ArmaLite’s® SAAMI chambers over the past 22 years,” and they have not had any catastrophic failures.

According to ArmaLite:

“Occasionally a non-standard round (of generally imported) ammunition will fit too tightly in the leade, and resistance to early bullet movement can cause elevated chamber pressures. These pressures are revealed by overly flattened primers or by powder stains around the primer that reveal leaking gasses.”

What Do You Have?

So, if you own a rifle chambered for the .223 for 5.56, do you know for which caliber it is really chambered?

Many match rifles are chambered in .223 Remington (SAAMI specs) for tighter tolerances, and theoretically better accuracy.

Many of the AR-15’s currently sold on the market are made for the 5.56 NATO cartridge. If you own one of these, you should be fine with any .223 or 5.56 ammunition.

However, ATK dropped this bomb in the bulletin on the .223/5.56:

“It is our understanding that commercially available AR15’s and M16’s – although some are stamped 5.56 Rem on the receiver – are manufactured with .223 chambers.”

So, even if your AR is stamped 5.56, is it really? Check your owner’s manual or call the company directly and make sure you get an answer you feel comfortable with.

As if the confusion regarding the .223 vs 5.56 chambers wasn’t enough, there is a third possibility in the mix, that is being used by at least one major manufacturer. The .223 Wylde chamber is a modified SAAMI-spec .223 chamber that allows for the safe use of 5.56 NATO rounds, but maintains tighter tolerances for better accuracy.

Yeah, yeah… What’s the bottom line?

Here’s the bottom line. If you want to follow the safest possible course, always shoot .223 Remington ammunition. The .223 Rem cartridge will safely shoot in any rifle chambered for the .223 or 5.56.

If you want to shoot 5.56 NATO rounds, make sure you have a rifle designed for the 5.56 military cartridge. Shooting 5.56 in a normal .223 Rem rifle can result in bad things.

All of that .... and yet no evidence of case volume in 556 as opposed to .223 causing an unsafe over-pressure condition.

RichB said:
Its related due to the difference in case volume (Nato casings labeled 5.56mm are usually thicker than commerical .223 cases). You can notice this by comparing the weights of the brass with each other: the 5.56mm brass will be heavier.

A smaller internal volume means for a given round (same powder, COAL, bullet, etc...) the pressure will be higher, and may exceed the maximum pressure of your rifle.

Sorry Rich, a cases’ weight does not necessarily indicate its’ capacity. The only way to determine capacity (at home) fairly accurately is water testing. Furthermore, after having done a shitload of case capacity testing, I can tell you from experience, there is as big of a difference between manufacturers than there is between the 223 and 5.56 cases on average.

Furthermore, I’ve seen case capacity vary greatly between cases from the same lot/production run.

Let’s break this down:

RichB said:
A smaller internal volume means for a given round (same powder, COAL, bullet, etc...) the pressure will be higher …

True, but barely measurable and only those with very specialized equipment.

RichB said:
and may exceed the maximum pressure of your rifle.

Not a chance in hell, using correct load data. You can load 5.56 cases all day, every day for either 223 or 5.56 with zero over-pressure issues due to case capacity.

The bottom line is, a properly-sized piece of brass, loaded using the correct load data is not going to cause an over-pressure issue. Never, ever, ever.

You would have to F' something else up too, to cause and issue. Case capacity will not do it on its own.

Winterborn · Mar 21, 2013

FlatsFlite said:
All of that .... and yet no evidence of case volume in 556 as opposed to .223 causing an unsafe over-pressure condition.

Sorry Rich, a cases’ weight does not necessarily indicate its’ capacity. The only way to determine capacity (at home) fairly accurately is water testing. Furthermore, after having done a shitload of case capacity testing, I can tell you from experience, there is as big of a difference between manufacturers than there is between the 223 and 5.56 cases on average.

Furthermore, I’ve seen case capacity vary greatly between cases from the same lot/production run.

Let’s break this down:

True, but barely measurable and only those with very specialized equipment.

Not a chance in hell, using correct load data. You can load 5.56 cases all day, every day for either 223 or 5.56 with zero over-pressure issues due to case capacity.

The bottom line is, a properly-sized piece of brass, loaded using the correct load data is not going to cause an over-pressure issue. Never, ever, ever.

You would have to F' something else up too, to cause and issue. Case capacity will not do it on its own.

I bow to your superior experience with case capacity.

I personally have never seen an issue with regards to rifle performance between .223 and 5.56 stamped brass: I know what the recommendation is, and indeed the new Hornady manual differentiates between the two: the 5.56 loads are noticeably "softer" than the .223 loads for the same powder and bullet weight. Why? The only reason I can think of is the phantom "thicker case" that will cause a lower internal volume.

Personally I use a 5.56 chambered gun and just load the data for the powder and bullet i'm using: I don't sort commercial brass from milspec, and I've never seen an overpressure issue with my handloads. Admittingly, I don't push the envelope as far as maximum loads, either.

TL;DR: I agree with you 100%, I never saw a reason using modern load data to differentiate at all.

FlatsFlite · Mar 21, 2013

RichB said:
the new Hornady manual differentiates between the two: the 5.56 loads are noticeably "softer" than the .223 loads for the same powder and bullet weight. Why? The only reason I can think of is the phantom "thicker case" that will cause a lower internal volume.

Nope. This is the reason why

.223 max chamber pressure = 55,000
5.56 Max chamber pressure = 62,000

Without openning a second can of worms. DoD did some pressure testing with 5.56 rounds from different manufacturers. Pressures ranged from roughly 48,000 to 64,000 for what was supposed to be the same load.

However, (IIRC) more than half were over 55,000 making them too hot for the SAMMI spec .223.

US made .223 rifles should be proofed at around 68,000.

With that in mind, chances are you won't have a problem shooting 5.56, BUT at least 6 times out of 10 you will exceed the max SAMMI chamber pressure, but will always be under the proofed ceiling.

Winterborn · Mar 21, 2013

FlatsFlite said:
Nope. This is the reason why

.223 max chamber pressure = 55,000
5.56 Max chamber pressure = 62,000

Without openning a second can of worms. DoD did some pressure testing with 5.56 rounds from different manufacturers. Pressures ranged from roughly 48,000 to 64,000 for what was supposed to be the same load.

However, (IIRC) more than half were over 55,000 making them too hot for the SAMMI spec .223.

US made .223 rifles should be proofed at around 68,000.

With that in mind, chances are you won't have a problem shooting 5.56, BUT at least 6 times out of 10 you will exceed the max SAMMI chamber pressure, but will always be under the proofed ceiling.

Thanks, learned something. :thumbup:

Sent from my EVO using Tapatalk 2

Deep Creek Rock · Mar 21, 2013

Definetly see a primer crimp issue. And some PMC do indeed have crimps. Ive had to swage quite a few of those. You usally can tell if the 5.56 case needs swaged by just looking at it. There are various forms of crimps, including circular, and star style. The ones in the pic have circular crimps - the ring around the primer pocket is the crimp on those.

If you purchased the RCBS primer swaging die - you can use the swaging head as a "go/ no go" gauge If the swaging head slips into the primer pocket hole and seats flush, then its ok. If it does not seat flush to the head, with finger pressure, then it will need to be swaged. You can do this off the press with the swaging head in your hands.

RCBS also makes a bench mounted swager, like the Dillion for far less money, and RCBS's no BS warranty. The problem right now is finding any, due to the political climate, and panic buying.

The difference in .223/5.56 pressures, is for a factory loading. You can indeed use a 5.56 case in a .223 chamber, if you load the case to .223 pressures/specs. You just need to start at the starting charge and work up,and check for pressure signs. The external size of a .223/5.56 case is the same after resizing, and trimming. The internal volume can differ (so they say) but as stated before, you start with the starting charge weight and work up.

My bench rest loads in my Rem 700 VLS (bolt gun) is done using WCC 5.56 cases of all the same headstamps. Ive used these cases for 14 plus years, and never had a pressure issue with them. They are deadly accurate, and have killed every groundhog with one shot that Ive used them on.

jrumann59 · Mar 24, 2013

My thinking is since the old had the red seal around the primer is it possible the sides of the old primers didn't get removed. I broke a depriming mandrel on a similar looking case.

oupa · Mar 25, 2013

What causes this? That's simple, INATTENTION! Don't get upset. I'm not bust'n on you. It happens to all of us now and then. A cocked primer slips by and you get what you have here. How you managed that many in one block... well... :innocent0

The primers aren't my greatest concern though. That can be fixed. How'd you get the rims so screwed up? :whoa:

That's a problem right there. Is this range brass that had the rims wrenched when you found it or are you doing that with the press?

Oh and by the way... your primer problems are why I decided years ago to use a reamer instead of a swedge to remove crimps. There is no mistaking those little brass shavings when wanting to be sure the job is done.

kohburn · Mar 25, 2013

FlatsFlite said:
The bottom line is, a properly-sized piece of brass, loaded using the correct load data is not going to cause an over-pressure issue. Never, ever, ever.

You would have to F' something else up too, to cause and issue. Case capacity will not do it on its own.

this is the artical i always have to dig up when the whole 556 223 stuff starts getting thrown around.

different chamber measurements between manufacturers seem to have a greater effect than the ammunition selection

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/5-56-vs-223/

jimbobborg · Mar 25, 2013

oupa said:
What causes this? That's simple, INATTENTION!

Nope, not inattention, INEXPERIENCE. I've had primers go sideways when I didn't get the crimp out completely.

IndispensableDestiny · Mar 26, 2013

RichB said:
Its related due to the difference in case volume (Nato casings labeled 5.56mm are usually thicker than commerical .223 cases). You can notice this by comparing the weights of the brass with each other: the 5.56mm brass will be heavier.

A smaller internal volume means for a given round (same powder, COAL, bullet, etc...) the pressure will be higher, and may exceed the maximum pressure of your rifle.

The new Hornady load manual (9th edition) actually lists different loads for 5.56mm and .223. Personally, my AR is a 5.56 chamber so I am comfortable shooting both.

From an empty case standpoint, the difference between 5.56 and .223 is negligible. The difference is in the rifle chamber, in the leade. It's not recommended to fire 5.56 loads in a .223 chamber because they are loaded hotter, and need the extra space in the throat to control pressure. The same thing would apply if you reloaded .223 cartridge with a load intended to be fired from a 5.56 chamber.

What causes this?

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