Newbie Bullet Seating Question

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  • Swaim13

    Active Member
    Jun 11, 2017
    327
    Hello everyone,

    I am just getting into reloading .223 and am getting odd results when I am seating bullets. I am getting OALs that vary up to 0.01" over 20 cases when I am using my Hornady seating die (from the custom grade reloading die set) :banghead:. I am usually getting OALs within 0.004" but it does vary quite a bit.

    I have tried disassembling the dies twice and spraying it down thoroughly with the recommended gun cleaner and lube. When I am setting up the die, I have a case on the ram at the highest position and I screw the die in until I am barely touching the brass then back it off a quarter of a turn. I am not trying to crimp the bullets. I then use the seater adjustment screw to set the bullet seating depth for the first round. I have been doing an initial seating with all of my cartridges, measuring the OAL, and then putting them into groups of the correct OAL, too long, and too short. I then press all of the cases that are too long again with the seater adjustment screw dialed in a bit more and repeat the sorting and pressing until they are all at the correct OAL or too short. I have been setting the cartridges that are too short to the side until I get a bullet puller to restart the process.

    I hope I am just making a newbie mistake that is easy to correct or is this something where I should be contacting Hornady? Any thoughts or comments are appreciated.
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    .004 to .010 is nothing to worry about.

    You're talking about one to three human hairs worth of variation.

    Sometimes frustrating? Yes. Is it a problem? No.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    The problem is that, unless you buy high dollar bullets, the ogive dimensions differ. Since you only have one seating head, whenever there is a different ogive measurment, you get a long or short round. The variance that you are getting won't matter a hoot if you are shooting from an AR at 100 yards or less. Now, if you are talking about shooting at 600 to 1000 yards or longer, you need to take a long range shooting course.:D
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    John's pretty much on point. There's going to be minute variations in bullets from the ogive to the tip of the bullet itself. The seating die seats the round off the ogive.

    So while you may be seeing swings in COL when measuring from base to tip, if you were using a comparator (which measures at the ogive), you'd be seeing little to no variation in COL.
     

    K31

    "Part of that Ultra MAGA Crowd"
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 15, 2006
    35,632
    AA county
    You are likely measuring OAL based on the tip of the bullet to the head (the closed end of the case) whereas your seating die is hollow and pressing on the ogive of the bullet. The seating die therefore is pressing the bullets into the case as consistently as possible but you are measuring at a different point. Even match bullets will give slightly inconsistent results like this. To measure at the ogive you need a tool like the Hornady bullet comparator.
     

    Sticky

    Beware of Dog
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 16, 2013
    4,501
    AA Co
    You are likely measuring OAL based on the tip of the bullet to the head (the closed end of the case) whereas your seating die is hollow and pressing on the ogive of the bullet. The seating die therefore is pressing the bullets into the case as consistently as possible but you are measuring at a different point. Even match bullets will give slightly inconsistent results like this. To measure at the ogive you need a tool like the Hornady bullet comparator.
    ^^^ This... and depending on what projectiles you are loading, there can be a lot of variation when you measure tip to base on a loaded cartridge.

    Measure a handful of bullets from the box and see if you see some variations in bullet oal, then invest in a comparator to assist with accurate measurements.. ;)
     

    Speed3

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 19, 2011
    7,816
    MD
    So while you may be seeing swings in COL when measuring from base to tip, if you were using a comparator (which measures at the ogive), you'd be seeing little to no variation in COL.

    Agree with this....get a comparator and that will help a lot. Although, using "good bullets" helps, I've noticed that Bergers varied ogive box to box more than Sierras...only my experience, Ill stick with Sierras.
     

    iH8DemLibz

    When All Else Fails.
    Apr 1, 2013
    25,396
    Libtardistan
    ^^^ This... and depending on what projectiles you are loading, there can be a lot of variation when you measure tip to base on a loaded cartridge.

    Measure a handful of bullets from the box and see if you see some variations in bullet oal, then invest in a comparator to assist with accurate measurements.. ;)

    Wouldn't matter if the box contained bullets that were one inch long and two inches long.

    They're being pushed on at one end. And that end would stop in the same location each time the ram is moved into place.

    The only difference in the cartridges is some of the bullets would be sticking farther into the case. But the COAL would remain the same.
     

    John from MD

    American Patriot
    MDS Supporter
    May 12, 2005
    22,734
    Socialist State of Maryland
    Wouldn't matter if the box contained bullets that were one inch long and two inches long.

    They're being pushed on at one end. And that end would stop in the same location each time the ram is moved into place.

    The only difference in the cartridges is some of the bullets would be sticking farther into the case. But the COAL would remain the same.

    Let's face it, the reloading industry has made lots of money selling tools to reloaders that never seem to get it exactly right and then they come out with a new tool. :lol2:

    OP, in a nutshell, here is the issue. Unless you have lots of time to spend measuring each bullet and keeping them in segregated lots, you are always going to have some variation.

    30 years ago or so, used to shoot with an Air Force doctor who never loaded at home and never used a scale. He loaded his rifle rounds by volume (using manual references), and adjusted his bullet to land distance using a bullet in a case with slits in the neck. He did this whenever he bought a new lot of bullets (5000 round cases) and stopped when he got the best group. He always scored in the top ranks.

    Shoot the gun and let it tell you what it likes. ;)
     

    Uncle Duke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 2, 2013
    11,667
    Not Far Enough from the City
    OP, with the idea that a picture is worth 1000 words.

    Note the ogive that the guys here are mentioning. Note also the bullet point.

    You'll see that your bullet point is touching absolutely nothing within that rifle bore. The first point of contact that your bullet will have with the lands of your rifle bore will take place where bullet bearing surface begins to appear at the ogive. It's the ogive that your seating plug inside your seating die is contacting as well, and where that ogive begins is the source of your variation.

    As you progress, you'll perhaps want to measure the distance between that bullet ogive and the lands in your rifle, as doing so and experimenting with that relationship can help with squeezing optimal levels of accuracy out of your handloads.

    None of which means that your current loads with the length variations you mentioned are now no good. But when you reach a point where you want to tweak loads with "nth degree" optimal accuracy in mind, you'll want to concentrate on the relationship between the ogive on your bullet and the lands of your rifle.

    The link below is but one example of one tool that can help you with this.



    https://www.hornady.com/reloading/p...ools-and-gauges/lock-n-load-bullet-comparator
     

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    Major03

    Ultimate Member
    OP, you've stumbled onto one of the joys and frustrations of reloading! The ability to endlessly fiddle with and customize the round to YOUR barrel.

    Here's the rub, some bullets like a bit of jump to the lands, some like to be just a hair's length away from the lands. It takes some experimentation. But the first step is to accurately measure the length of your chamber and find out where the lands and grooves of your barrel are.

    Here's a link to an inexpensive way to do that: http://www.wideopenspaces.com/reloading-finding-lands-pics/

    Or you can buy tools (called a headspace gauge) that measure the same thing, but honestly this method works just as well. Probably the best way is to combine the method in the link with a bullet comparator so that you have the measurement to the ogive as others have said, but if you don't plan on swapping out bullet types it can work to just measure the OAL to the tip too.

    You'll need to experiment. Generally you don't do this with gas operated semi's, as close tolerances within gas guns can lead to failures to feed. Having said that...knowing how much jump (distance between the ogive on the bullet and the lands/grooves of the barrel) you have in your loads I've found to be helpful even with gas guns.

    Bottom line though...just as others have stated you don't have any issues with your seating die. It's inconsistencies in your bullets and they won't effect the accuracy of those reloads enough to worry about IMHO. One can go crazy obsessing over making the perfect reload.

    Opinions vary, but for what it's worth here's how I'd rate things that impact the accuracy of your reloads in order:

    - Bullet weight / design that works for your barrel's twist rate and what your shooting goals and budget are
    - Powder charge that finds a "node" in your barrel's harmonics for that bullet / case / primer / powder combo
    - bullet jump
    - concentricity
    - consistent neck tension
    - anally obsessing about powder throw / trickling up to charge
    - deburred flash hole
    - Sorting components by weight (bullets) or volume (cases)
    - uniforming primer pockets

    There are other tweeks too...like uniforming the meplats of the bullets...but to be honest I don't spend a lot of time doing things like that or really most of the list above unless I'm making match loads. One could spend a lot of time chasing accuracy through tinkering loads that would be better spent shooting.
     

    HWB3

    Member
    Jan 18, 2017
    69
    Ellicott City
    Are you using a case checking gauge like the Lyman checking block. If they drop in and seat flush with the block they will chamber and fire right?
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I remember the story of David Tubbs.

    Getting ready for a big match, he loaded his match ammo. Checked and measured every round. Picked the best rounds for the match. Set the others aside for practice.

    He went to the match, won.

    He went home, and putting things away, found he took the wrong box of rounds. He took the "practice" ammo, not the perfect "match" ammo.

    Relax and go shooting.
     

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