Wear and Carry Application Number as of July 14

Myself as a couple of other people here who are on fixed income and I am legally disabled as well. I collect SSDI every month and it is very hard for me to get the $$ together to give to MSP. The only way I could pay for class is because a couple of people here to wanted to give back to those who are not able to pay for class is the only way I could attend. I am forever grateful for what they have done. Well since I do have my HQL and everything going to see if I can find the extra $$ in next months check and do the paperwork and try to word it the way MSP might just look at it and then knowing they will deny it then have my written request ready for the HRB. Going to add some medical info in their which means they will be bound by HEPA rules as well. I will keep everyone up to date on how it goes... Let the adventure begin....

Z_Man said:

so realistically we would need 1 million bucks and 2000 people to volunteer to go through the process. to force the issue.

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If you can find the $1 million I would spend the time. Shucks if they can change the training until afterwards (former NRA Certified class C coach in rifle and pistol) I would spend the $100 just to try, I would consider that as part of my contributions to the cause.

It really gets tough to spend $400 or $500 just to collect a denial, and then always have to answer the question "Have you ever been denied?".

A suggestion to increase the number of applicants. If some of the knowledgeable members familiar with the process would volunteer to unofficially pre screen the applicants and offer an opinion as to the chance of being approved it would embolden some to go ahead and try.

doublins said:

...I bet many more folks would be willing to roll the dice for $100, if the issue of an otherwise approved permit was then contingent on receipt of completed training and a passing qualification score.

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I'd be able to bet $100 on that.

EDIT:

WRT the HPRB, I heard the Chair state that there was a backlog of about 30 cases at the last meeting, if I recollect rightly. So y'all can factor that into your calculations.

Those who have the most need to carry can not afford to go thru the process of getting a wear and carry permit. This gamble on whether they get one or not based on the whims of the HRB cost prohibitive to say the least. 20 bucks, 3 days and one simple to fill out form and I am carrying as a PA resident. I could never quality for a Maryland permit so I did not waste the money to get one. This is why the requirements are so high and the denials take so long. By the time you do get denied your training has expired. So for round 2 of the reapplying your going to pay for retraining for everything to be processed again. 3 years and a couple of grand when everything is said and done is one hell of an infringement. This is all done by design and until this changes most will not gamble that kind of cash for the privilege to carry in murderland.

You are wrong

dblas said:

This absolutely the message we need to be putting out there.

From me and repeated by Captain Stachurski of LD - People need to apply and if denied appeal to the HPRB before they can comment and complain about the wear and carry permit system in Maryland.

And if you applied a couple of years ago and got denied, apply again today and see what happens.

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You don't need to be approved or denied to be able to see the ridiculousness of the HPRB, and then so be entitled to have an opinion concerning same.

Any progress is progress, incremental is good, etc, etc . Yes, the newest Board member is potentially injecting a new dynamic.

And the MSP figures , during normal times such as presently, can probably be taken at face value. The overwhelming majority of Md Permits are routine, and routinely not disapproved other than prohibited persons. To wit , armed security and investigative employment, current and retired Corrections, retired LE that falls outside LEOSA, but within Md definitions, and bussiness owners/ mgrs for traditional restrictions. Heck , even the proverbial murder victims who survive, for initial. The boundry pushing applications ( personal protection not involving previous attempted murder, removal of restrictions on existing permit) are a stastical blip that round off to zero.

We have recent history with large number of applications to , among other things, change the numbers on disapprovals : Post Woolard, pre-stay aka The 365 . Been there, recruited people to come with me.

Going by Dblas's quotes of MSP in this thread, "normal" disapprovals ran 4 per week, so say 200 per year, +/- . The 300 plus disapprovals generated by the 365 would have more than doubled the percentages. But that never showed up ?? I'm guessing the statistics were finesed by not counting them in 2012 because they were held over into the next year, and then not counted in 2013 because they origonated in '12. And opps, once the '12 numbers were first calculated, its too late to retroactively change them. I could be wrong, and non-traditional applications just ignored as extraneous not relating to the usual flow of opperations. I'm kinda curious, but probably not worth the juice/ squeeze ratio to make a big thing at this point.

All that leads up to : The last best chance to have mass numbers of applications simply to reduce the purported 98% approval rate has already come and gone. With the new level of upfront expenses and time, few people will do that just to get dissaproved. And if say multiple hundreds of people were magically willing to do that, there would be really question if that $250-500K per year would have a higher, better use either financing one of the lawsuits ir finally being able to hard core lobby and donate to pols.

At this point what is needed is cases with specific narrowly focused issues to go to HPRB. If there was screening and coordination to identify strategic cases, I doubt I'd be the only one to periodically kick in to bankroll it thru thr HPRB.

But even that presupposes two conditions:
1. Thr HPRB would rule consistantly in accordance with their prior decisions.

2. The MSP LD would make their standard operations conform to HPRB rulings, instead of disapproving and letting God recognize his own. ( Historical reference)

Blacksmith101 said:

If you can find the $1 million I would spend the time. Shucks if they can change the training until afterwards (former NRA Certified class C coach in rifle and pistol) I would spend the $100 just to try, I would consider that as part of my contributions to the cause.

It really gets tough to spend $400 or $500 just to collect a denial, and then always have to answer the question "Have you ever been denied?".

A suggestion to increase the number of applicants. If some of the knowledgeable members familiar with the process would volunteer to unofficially pre screen the applicants and offer an opinion as to the chance of being approved it would embolden some to go ahead and try.

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Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to spend on training "To give it a shot"?

dblas said:

Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to spend on training "To give it a shot"?

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The prices set for the training and associated fees are set high to discourage people to apply for them in the first place? This is a for 2 reasons that benefit the democrats . The first one is to discourage people from applying the second reason is to turn firearm ownership and carry rights into a tool for inciting class warfare. If one wanted to get technical this is explicitly covered in the 2nd Amendment . " The right of the people to Keep and bear ( aka wear or carry ) arms shall not be infringed". We the people have accepted infringements and it has gotten to this point. Unless the idea is to have MSI work with an IP to get subsidized training to pad the numbers of rejections and make it more obtainable. I do not think that asking a price to gamble on getting one is worth even asking .

dblas said:

Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to spend on training "To give it a shot"?

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I'm exempt from the training and I still shy away from wasting $75+fingerprint fees of at least another $50. Then I've got to wait to be denied then be scheduled for the HPRB, then figure in the 5 hour round trip plus gas to Glen Burnie to maybe have a snowballs chance in Hell of getting it. I'd love to try but I'd rather spend that money for Florida or Virginia's permit.
I hate to sound like such a Debbie downer, but I've been through this before in 2014 and I've got a rather harsh taste in my mouth from it.

psycosteve said:

The prices set for the training and associated fees are set high to discourage people to apply for them in the first place? This is a for 2 reasons that benefit the democrats . The first one is to discourage people from applying the second reason is to turn firearm ownership and carry rights into a tool for inciting class warfare. If one wanted to get technical this is explicitly covered in the 2nd Amendment . " The right of the people to Keep and bear ( aka wear or carry ) arms shall not be infringed". We the people have accepted infringements and it has gotten to this point. Unless the idea is to have MSI work with an IP to get subsidized training to pad the numbers of rejections and make it more obtainable. I do not think that asking a price to gamble on getting one is worth even asking .

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Thank you for that soliloquy, however, instructors set the price for training not the state, so you are saying that all firearms instructors are Democrats and have inflated training prices to discourage people from applying, and that trainers have also done so to incite class warfare?? Did I understand you correctly?

How about just answering the question, there was a reason it was asked, and no it wasn't so you could pontificate on how instructors are keeping the common firearm owner down.

Buff7mm said:

I'm exempt from the training and I still shy away from wasting $75+fingerprint fees of at least another $50. Then I've got to wait to be denied then be scheduled for the HPRB, then figure in the 5 hour round trip plus gas to Glen Burnie to maybe have a snowballs chance in Hell of getting it. I'd love to try but I'd rather spend that money for Florida or Virginia's permit.
I hate to sound like such a Debbie downer, but I've been through this before in 2014 and I've got a rather harsh taste in my mouth from it.

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I'm glad you're exempt, but I asked the question to gauge what, if anything, could be come up with to make the process less of a financial burden so people will apply, regardless of the outcome, to show how screwed up the process actually is.

Based on your reply and PS's reply, no one is interested in a possible less expensive alternative for the training, so I won't bring it up again and sit here and watch everyone bitch about the numbers instead of trying to come up with solutions to make them more like the reality they are.

And I'm done asking for and posting information that anyone here can get, if anyone wants to know what MSP LD is doing, submit the request on your own.

dblas said:

Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to spend on training "To give it a shot"?

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I believe I paid $50 for the course for my va and fla permits and $25 for the ink prints and what ever those states asked for their permits. and I believe I should be able to use that same certificate.

dblas said:

I'm glad you're exempt, but I asked the question to gauge what, if anything, could be come up with to make the process less of a financial burden so people will apply, regardless of the outcome, to show how screwed up the process actually is.

Based on your reply and PS's reply, no one is interested in a possible less expensive alternative for the training, so I won't bring it up again and sit here and watch everyone bitch about the numbers instead of trying to come up with solutions to make them more like the reality they are.

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I'm not trying to downplay what you're doing as I and others appricate what you're trying to do. But what I have bolded above is what I was trying to show that it's not just the training costs that makeup the financial burden, the reason I stated I am training exempt and went on to try to show that travel alone for the process can be a big burden to some, be it for gas or their vehicle might not trustworthy enough to make a trip either from my portion of the state or the lower Eastern Shore. The burden, either finincial or otherwise needs to go away and the process needs to fall in line with our neighboring states period.

dblas said:

Thank you for that soliloquy, however, instructors set the price for training not the state, so you are saying that all firearms instructors are Democrats and have inflated training prices to discourage people from applying, and that trainers have also done so to incite class warfare?? Did I understand you correctly?

How about just answering the question, there was a reason it was asked, and no it wasn't so you could pontificate on how instructors are keeping the common firearm owner down.

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I am not saying that the all the instructors are Democrats what I am saying is as an individual why would I throw good money knowing I am going to get denied by the state police only to gamble on the HRB who are more then likely going to rubber stamp the whole process. I understand that 16 hours of training is a lot of time for an instructor who is in business to make money. When you add in rent for facilities, and range time there is not much money to be made even with full classes of students. The process is arbitrary at best, at worst it reinforces that business owners and doctors are they're own special class. Witnessing the SB281 hearings I know that nothing we do other then vote out the idiots in Annapolis will bring about any real change. So when we have numbers on our side what is that going to do ? The GA will ignore it and do what they want. In York county PA as a resident I paid $20.00 filled out a single sided sheet with the names of two references, on a Saturday. Monday I got the call to pick it up. I went in took the picture and was handed the fresh from the laminating machine . Total time in the sheriffs office between both visits 20 minutes. Only reason it took so long was I spilled coffee on my form before I dropped it off and had to fill it out again.

But to answer the question I would gamble 200 on training and 150 for the processing of the permit. It would be worth it not to have to disarm to visit family and friends in MD. I would have a better shot with national repository for carry permits to happen before the MD GA would ever grant the privilege of being able to carry in Maryland to the unwashed masses.

No, the instructors generally are seeking a fair return for their services. And for the most part do so adequately to quite well. Hypothetically there could be a situation in the future where they might lobby for even more training with an eye for expanded business opportunity, but that's not here, the current situation is the child of the MGA.

We know that applying to simply get disapproved to change the statistics tops out at 365 , without the $ or time commitment for speculative training. Going foreward it now requires mental calculus involving their likelihood of fitting into a particular niche to actually be likely to recieve a Permit . ( Yes, incrementally is good, every niche added is good, etc.)

I'll take a wild guess that a price point of $50 would have a cpl dozen people interested for training for application with no visable chance of succuess. This would be statewide, with no assurance of being able to meet at the same place at the same time.

dblas said:

Just out of curiosity, how much would you be willing to spend on training "To give it a shot"?

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Not much because what your "To give it a shot" essentially is not getting a shot at an approved wear and carry permit but simply an opportunity to become a statistic to illustrate that more people in Maryland would apply for permits if they did not know the system was rigged against them. And to prove the approval rate numbers quoted by the MSP are a sham used to justify the status quo. There is no guarantee nor even a indication that any change would be forthcoming from the administration if even thousands of Maryland citizens invest hundreds of dollars in fees and dozens of hours in time each in providing these statistics.

This effort, although laudable, should not be necessary because any reasonably intelligent rational person who looks into the permitting question can see for themselves that the chances for anyone getting approved are slim to none if they are not included in the "special categories" that have been created. A simple poll of Maryland citizens to determine how many would like to have a wear and carry permit compared to the actual number of permits submitted would show a far more accurate picture because in addition to the likelihood of being denied people refrain from applying because of other issues such as cost, amount of training required, lack of other ways of showing proficiency, complexity of the entire process, etc. Comparing this states costs and procedures and the number of applicants submitting vs issued per capita with other states that are constitutionally shall issue will also further illustrate just how dysfunctional Maryland is.

I do not have a complaint about the cost the instructors are charging for the mandated training which seems to be about $200 to $400 for 16 hours over two days with live fire, for those who need it. I do believe the training mandated and the limiting how it is given is an arbitrary and capricious imposition intended to obstruct the issuing of permits. There are many other excellent training programs and ways of obtaining the knowledge and skills required and people who already posses them should not be forced to pay the fees and spend the time just to sit in a class so a box on a form can be checked.

I do have a complaint about the total upfront costs required just to find out if you can get a permit. If you get a permit your HQL is free. I already have an HQL which means the MSP has my fingerprints and photograph on file and has run background checks, they also have run background checks for purchases, and have approved me as a designated collector. If the wear and carry permit can offset part of the HQL process the HQL should be able to offset some of the permit process. It also should be possible to submit an application and receive a determination that if approved could be contingent on taking the mandated training.

.

dblas said:

As of July 14, 2016, there have been 2,033 new handgun permit applications, averaging 73 /week, which is a 38% increase from 2015.

As of July 14, 2016, there have been 2,250 handgun permit renewal apps, averaging 80/week, which is the same compared to 2015.

As of July 14, 2016, there have been 96 handgun permit denials (includes new/renewal), averaging 3/week, which is -25% compared to 2015.

The above numbers come directly from Captain Stachurski at LD.

Originally Posted by Doublins:

In this state- any movement in the right direction is a cause for celebration.

That said- this puts the approval rating for applications at 97.75%, beyond corroborating what Gov. Hogan said.

Which means, the only way to FIX the problem for the average citizen, is for MORE PEOPLE TO APPLY. Nobody will believe that anything needs to be changed if there is a 98% approval rate.

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Thanks for posting Dan, and Doublins pretty much nailed it. I agree getting the training deferred until after approval would be a big help to many that would like to apply, but that requires a change in the law so don't hold your breath. Of course, there is no need to fix something that apparently isn't broken, or where no one seemingly cares except a few old, fat, white guys. I get that many will find it expensive, time consuming and cumbersome with no guarantee, but you have to pick a time to take a shot, and the atmosphere is the best it has ever been. If you can't or don't want to participate that is your choice, but I see nothing productive in criticizing others that are still in the fight - even if you think its futile. What's in your wallet.

Gryphon said:

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Thanks for posting Dan, and Doublins pretty much nailed it. I agree getting the training deferred until after approval would be a big help to many that would like to apply, but that requires a change in the law so don't hold your breath. Of course, there is no need to fix something that apparently isn't broken, or where no one seemingly cares except a few old, fat, white guys. I get that many will find it expensive, time consuming and cumbersome with no guarantee, but you have to pick a time to take a shot, and the atmosphere is the best it has ever been. If you can't or don't want to participate that is your choice, but I see nothing productive in criticizing others that are still in the fight - even if you think its futile. What's in your wallet.

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https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=185222

This right here is why I am not eager to waste money on a permit I will never get a permit until G&S is fully defined. I do not trust the HRB to make the right choice even when it has members of our community on it. Right now there is no real standard to G&S except for the line " we will know it when we see it" and even if a permit is issued it will be so heavily restricted that it will be almost worthless. Until G&S is actually defined by Hogan or something major happens in the courts another group of 365ers is not going to happen. The ever shifting standard of what is G&S is ? Creates enough doubt to why try when you know you will get denied.

My personal take on this: I can see both sides and both have valid arguments. I don't play the lottery and I don't gamble. That said, millions flock to Vegas to hit the tables, slots, and so forth. Most lose then go back home and write it off as experience. My permit app was my Vegas trip. I knew full well going into it that more than likely would not "win". I knew how much I could afford to lose. Yea, I was denied now ,waiting on my HPRB hearing. This process is my "experience". One more step to go then I can say "been there, done that, wont do it again."