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Old October 10th, 2018, 10:05 PM #51
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I saw X-Caliber but they seem to be fairly new and are totally hit or miss with their QC according to the internet. They seem like a great deal for what you get, almost too good to be true.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 01:50 AM #52
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I saw X-Caliber but they seem to be fairly new and are totally hit or miss with their QC according to the internet. They seem like a great deal for what you get, almost too good to be true.
It seems as if they have been in business for the past 3 years, give or take.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 07:23 AM #53
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I have a aero precision m5e1 ( AR 10). I can't say what it will do at a 1000 since 100 yards is the longest range anywhere near me. At 100 it will definitely do sub MOA but at 1000 I don't think so. The 308 has a lot of drop and can be greatly affected by slight wind. I would like to find out what it can do as soon as I find a longer range near southern MD.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 08:51 AM #54
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You also have to remember... people post their best groups NOT their average group.

I call bs on anyone that says they can do 1/2 moa on a gas gun “on average”
It took me a long time to realize the truth of what you're saying. People don't seem to understand that it's possible to get a good group out of a blah rifle if you simply play the odds long enough. Getting a sub-MOA 3 shot group once isn't proving shit; getting 5-10 shot sub-MOA groups over-and-over most certainly is. Would also add that I suspect many of the best groups are being shot from very constrained mechanical rests, which is not how I shoot, at least.

Back on topic: I have a 16" AR-308 (CMMG Mk8 w/ DPMS Sportical upper) and I use it like I would with an AR-15 carbine... 2.5x PA optic on a GDI mount. It works, but it's a heavy mofo compared to the AR-15s I have. Does run nicely with a suppressor, though.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 09:04 AM #55
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Originally Posted by erwos View Post
It took me a long time to realize the truth of what you're saying. People don't seem to understand that it's possible to get a good group out of a blah rifle if you simply play the odds long enough. Getting a sub-MOA 3 shot group once isn't proving shit; getting 5-10 shot sub-MOA groups over-and-over most certainly is. Would also add that I suspect many of the best groups are being shot from very constrained mechanical rests, which is not how I shoot, at least.
Agreed. I also think its funny how many people say they have a "precision gun" but really when you see them at the range they are the ones that use 1/2 a magazine worth of ammo to get on target at 500 yards. That just does not impress me. Anyone can walk almost any gun "onto target" at any distance if they have enough ammo and can spot their misses.

What they should strive for is the ability to take a windage call, adjust your dope, apply the fundamentals and ring steel on your first shot at nearly any distance (Between 100 - 800 yards) on an MOA target. If you cant get on target within 3 rds AND once on target you dont have a 9/10 hit rate on an MOA target then either you, your ammo recipe or your rifle are out of sync.

At 800+ Yards if your rifle / dope / ammo recipe is on point slight adjustments in your fundamentals can throw you off target quickly.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 10:15 AM #56
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Tough group here! The .pdf I posed in #34 shows 5 of 6 (admittedly 3 shot) groups at sub-MOA. 1 group was only very slightly above MOA. That's at least some consistency, not a pick of some random good day.

I suppose it depends on how one defines "sub-MOA." Not to get totally pendantic, but one could say that until you shoot an infinite number of rounds sub-MOA you haven't actually achieved sub-MOA.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 10:17 AM #57
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Tough group here!
Welcome to precision shooting. You should go over to the Snipers Hide forums. They eat peoples hearts over there lol =)

All that said, we should all go out to the range one day, or multiple days and play around. I love to shoot with other people. I usually bring 3 - 4 rifles out at a time and play all day long. My normal range day weapons are:

- Kidd 10/22 Ultra Light in 22lr (50 - 100 yards) with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x
- 18" Ar15 in .223 (100 - 300 yards) with a Vortex Strike Eagle 1-8
- 24" Savage Custom in 6.5CM (300 - 1000 yards) with a Vortex Razor Gen ii 4.5-27
- 24" Savage Custom in 300WM or 338LM (500+ yards) with a Vortex Viper PST 6-24x
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Old October 11th, 2018, 10:32 AM #58
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Some of my rifles. I pulled some out of a couple safes so I could move them around and my lady snapped this pic. Also, disregard the far left rifles scope lol I do NOT have 2 "sun shades" on it normally. I grabbed a rifle out of the safe to goto the range and took the shade of it and screwed it onto another rifles scope so i didnt misplace it. lol
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Old October 11th, 2018, 12:48 PM #59
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I suppose it depends on how one defines "sub-MOA." Not to get totally pendantic, but one could say that until you shoot an infinite number of rounds sub-MOA you haven't actually achieved sub-MOA.
There's math reasons why people don't have a lot of respect for three shot groups anymore. Five is the minimum, and ten is better. Yes, this makes it a lot harder to pull off, but does a much better job of demonstrating shooter+system can really consistently achieve that level of performance.

Let me also note that you can do perfectly fine real-world work with a 2-3MOA shooting rifle... the insistence on the interwebz on having a sub-MOA gas gun and then convincing yourself you've got one any way you can is really not productive. I have several 308s that aren't gonna shoot MOA. I'm fine with that. I know what to do to build a bolt gun that can do it, and if I feel the need, I'll make it happen.
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Old October 11th, 2018, 12:51 PM #60
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Let me also note that you can do perfectly fine real-world work with a 2-3MOA shooting rifle...
I absolutely agree with this. In reality inside of 300 yards 1 - 3 MOA for a single shot, is still a hit on most "targets". That said guns are kind of like cars, no one needs a 10 second 1/4 mile car, millions of people drive and are completely functional with 18 second cars, but it doesnt mean people dont want a faster one =)
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