7.62x25 reloading, what am I doing wrong?

So I am trying to reload Tokarev for the first time. I have Lee Pacesetter dies and I cannot get it to work.

The cases aren't quite resizing correctly, though they are "good enough". Once fired PPU brass once resized will drop in the chamber, but it takes a bit of a tap to get it seated fully and need a finger nail to pull it back out. New PPU brass drops in and falls out (not resized at all though) as do S&B and PPU commercial loads.

So that is the first "issue". Yes I've tried the resizing die at various positions and just can't get it perfect, but it is close enough I don't have any real concerns (it isn't tight enough that it should effect chambering or extracting).

My big issue though is neck tension.

WHAT. THE. F!

I've tried with Hornady .308 83gr SPRN, PPU .307 110gr (for an M1) and plated .309 110gr bullets. All experience the same issue.

No matter how little or how much I am expanding the case neck, I seat a bullet and then no matter a taper crimp or no crimp I can push the bullet right in to the case. If I put enough taper crimp on it to actually hold the bullet in place moderately, I am bulging the case neck badly.

For the Hornady bullets this is compounded because they have a crimp grove. If the bullet seats down sufficiently to reach the crimp groove, the bullet falls until it hits the other side of the crimp groove. If the bullet is seated a hair further, the bullet falls in to the case.

I am GUESSING what is going on is the case neck tension is all at the very mouth of the house, not through the entire neck.

What beats me is how the heck to actually get the neck tension correct with the bullet? Do I need MORE expansion? I can't imagine less, as I've tried seating a bullet without expanding the case mouth at all and same issue. Is there any way here for me to adjust case neck tension so I can actually seat these?

I ordered a 7.62x25 Lee FCD, because why not throw more money at the problem? I'd think that should solve case neck tension for at least holding the bullet in place once it is seated. Though that doesn't solve the issue that the Hornady 83 gr bullets will just fall in to the case basically once they reach the crimp groove (which means I am seating at ~1.250" rather than the 1.350" that I want to be seating at).

So what might I be doing wrong here and how the heck do I get proper neck tension? I've never run in to this issue with any rifle cartridges I've loaded before.

1) Are these brass cases?

2) Measure a few cases after sizing. Diameter just above the rim. Mid way. Just at the shoulder. Just above the shoulder and at the top.

Compare to the diagrams of the cartridge.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7.62×25mm_Tokarev

If your sized cases are not close to those dimensions, call Lee.

My first gut thought is , the die is out of spec.

I do recall some issues years ago. I'm going to see if I did a thread on this.
Did you try to measure the ID of the mouth before and after sizing?

I don't recall, does the sizing die pin expand the mouth after sizing? You may need to pull that pin out and reduce the size of the expansion.
To see what you have to work with if that pin does expand as you pull the case back down, you can pull the pin and size to see where it squeezes to.

Edit: I "THINK" this is what bullet I have used (Hornady 3100)
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010591566

Here is an old thread on Tok reloading back to a meeting I go but looks like it starts out the same as what you are seeing.
https://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=146319

BTW, when the MDShooters search fails me to find an old thread Ive contributed to, I use google and input my search terms, then add mdshooters and my username. Usually finds it

Found this thread of toolness1's struggle to get this cartridge to work . Possible nuggets of info: https://www.mdshooters.com/archive/index.php/t-146319.html

Remember the bullets for 7.62x25 are usually .311-.310 in diameter, this is Russian (Euro) spec.

This review on Midway might help you:

this is my second set, the first was sent back, by mistake. it turns out there was nothing wrong with them. reloading into NEW Starline cases has no issues. necks are sized to a US dia of 7.62(.30cal). its reloading FIRED cases that sized neck dia comes into play. the issue was the bullet which i have only found in plenty and inexpensive(30carb) in .308dia, a US dimension for 7.62... the Russian 7.62 dia is .310... from research i found the internal neck dia for 7.62x25 tokerev is .310... google it. this was the same issue i encounter when i pulled 400 7.62x39 bullets from from a yardsale purchase. they had loaded US 30cal bullets. the necks where bulged from excessive crimp to just hold a .308 dia bullet in a sized neck dia of .310. they would also drop into case if pushed will slight effort. so,,, 2 things, either find true .310 dia bullets or neck size all cases after full lenght sizing with a 30 mauser FL die as ive done.... it works!! "neck sized" do not full sized your cases here. you'll feel when it stops. or... what i did till i found a 30mau FL,,, you can use 30/30 fl die. ram in and punch out with rod. use 6.5 140gr junk bullet or equivalent turned upside down and placed in shell holder primer hole in press. use as shell pedestal to run cases up into 30/30 die. remove decaper, punch out case thru top of die with rod. i used an old herters 3030 FL die, the decapper assembly comes all out and leaves a big hole to get rod thru. if you lower the ram just a little, punched out cases will drop right there and not fly. can do about 6 cases a minute this way. always experiment! you can replace the 30/30 decaper with its expander ball and do inside neck sizing for consistent internal dia for .308 dia bullets. so keep'em shooting regardless of the Russian embargo!!

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Thanks guys. No expander ball in the die, so can't tinker with that.

So this is shot out of an M57 and a couple of places I found say the M57 uses a true .308 barrel. Unfired PPU brass like I said plunks. I tried running a new PPU case through the expander and seat/crimp die. Holds the bullet nice and secure.

Also looking at calipers, when I am FL sizing a fire case, the case neck as a VISIBLE taper with the calipers on there. The bottom of the neck is at least .001-.002" wider than the mouth of the neck.

So Lee's directions are turn the die down until it touches the shell holder, then go 1/4-1/3 turn more. I am not sure how far I've gone past (half a turn? 3/4?), but I am putting a LOT of force on the lever now. And it appears to be working. I can just sort of notice a very slight taper to the neck still, but it appears to be holding the Hornady 30 Mauser bullets properly at 1.350" like I want it to. I've put a lot of force on there and the bullets are not popping in to the cases.

Honestly I am kind of tempted to try filing down the shell holder a couple thousands that came with the die set.

Also I am laughing right now because I checked that thread and I see someone mentioned another guy shaved his shell holder because it wasn't FL resizing properly. Well, now I know what I am trying!

What you’re doing wrong is not buying several spam cans of that ammo from me

I love a good mystery.
Lee I feel from the past decade of reloading tends to NOT full length size timetimes. I ran into this on the 300 blackout. It seems to want to bump shoulders but in the case of the 300blk it did not seem to reduce diameter at the shoulder enough. So, I pulled my dies out, pulled the barrel out of my Tok and took some PPU and reloads with the Hornady 3100 bullets.
1) The Bullet is in there snug, pushing on it does not get it to move
2) The PPU plunks into the chamber and turning the barrel out, it falls out on its own really easily
3) My reloads go in all the way but require a finger nail to pull it out and not always easily
4) I covered the case and bullet with a sharpie then plunked it in and pushed and then pulled it out. The contact is below the shoulder. Took some calipers and I can measure a 0.0005 to 0.001" difference between an unfired PPU and my reload in that area.
5) When I opened up my dies, I noticed my decapping pin was not in the die. In my written notes, I mention hitting the bullet w/ the die w/o the decapping pin after loading. I also mention there is a fine line between too much and not enough flair but I did not give myself any more notes on that. I also have a FCD for the Tok that I purchased separately and my notes say Use FCD last.

I pulled a PPU bullet cause they are notorious at under sizing the bullet. The PPU bullet is .307. Hornady was 308. It would be interesting to pull a surplus bullet and measure.

I can see the filing down of a shell holder idea but it will also affect head spacing if it moves the shoulder so it would have to be slight.

In my notes, I show to flair till .306" at the mouth, which hmm, I'd think I'd want to flair more than that, but that is what my notes say. Its also hard to measure of a flaired mouth and much easier to measure OD so don't know why I showed ID. Next time I do this, I'll have to update my notes.
It also shows a picture of the Hornady 3100 bullet how the base is slightly rounded, I guess that is part of the allowing .306"
My notes show that after sizing the ID of the mouth is .302 which is pretty small I think. I can see seating causing crushing of the shoulder and it bulging out.
I wonder if you could decap, then use a 308 expander pin to pull it back out w/o messing up the shoulder/neck. I may play with that.

I also wrote down .375" width at the shoulder even though I google Tok and people show that .377

The Lee dies are supposed to be both Tok and 7.63 Mauser.
I have a bunch of stamped 7.63 mauser brass range pick ups. I ran it through the Lee dies and it is REALLY hard to plunk test it into the TOK barrel. I have to lube it up then run it into the die a bunch of time and its still not anywhere near as easy as the sized PPU. The ONce fired 7.63 mouser round won't even chamber either. Wonder who shot it and how big the chamber was on the Mauser. Obviously not the same as a tok.

Phew. So I got 5 to stick. I literally spent hours on this now. Still seems to be a neck tension issue, but I just can’t figure it for the life of me. Swapping to a Lyman #12 shell holder worked there as it fits the case rim and is about .010” thinner.

But I tried like a dozen not getting it right with the bullet still loose. But I think the tension is better enough I can get it crimped in position properly with an FCD. Or so I hope.

Might end up not getting much better than blasting Ammo reloads if I can’t get consistent COAL.

One thing I did figure out is that by putting too much taper crimp I was sizing down the bullet base and that was preventing me from getting it seated and crimped properly. When I relaxed the crimp it was better, but still had difficulty getting rounds seated where I could push on the them and run them through a chamber (dummies) reliably.

So after hours of work I have 5 rounds loaded with 5.0gr BE to try at the range. Hopefully Titan gets me the FCD so I can load more with a proper crimp and hopefully make all of this much better.

Not that I have a solution, but I tracked down a used set of RCBS 30 mauser dies for a nice price, so I ordered those. I have a support ticket in with Lee on the off chance either I am doing something wrong or they can send a new sizing die (assuming that is what is going on).

lazarus said:

Not that I have a solution, but I tracked down a used set of RCBS 30 mauser dies for a nice price, so I ordered those. I have a support ticket in with Lee on the off chance either I am doing something wrong or they can send a new sizing die (assuming that is what is going on).

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I bought the rcbs 30 mauser dies also. Read about too many problems with the lee dies not aligning the bullets and those 30 mauser dies working much better. I haven't tried them yet. Maybe I'll try a few this weekend.

Buster Brown said:

I bought the rcbs 30 mauser dies also. Read about too many problems with the lee dies not aligning the bullets and those 30 mauser dies working much better. I haven't tried them yet. Maybe I'll try a few this weekend.

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Yeah that was half of it for me in the end also. I think that is why I got a small number to work in the end, but failed miserably with a bunch. I am 99% sure the sizing die is not properly necking down the case the full length (it is setting the shoulder back properly). I have gotten it so it plunks in the barrel and drops out. But still the neck isn't fully resized (at a guess the chamber has a little slop by the shoulder in the neck, and I mean, these are cases that were fired in this gun).

But I think the seating die, as you mentioned (and I have read many places) isn't seating some of the bullets straight. And that, along with poor neck tension is not getting the bullets to stay in place. When it manages to get a bullet seated straight, the short section of neck that has tension can hold the bullet.

I am guessing that is why it is hit or miss. But I am tired of ruining cases trying all the things as well as messing up bullets after trying dozens of times. I've got plenty of spare cases (50 new PPU cases and I think I've probably got close to 200 once fire Win, PPU and S&B cases). Not a ton of bullets. Though if I can get things working right I have no issues loading .309" 110gr plated lead bullets and working up a load.

Not sure now if I really needed the Lee FCD I ordered, if the RCBS dies work. I guess it doesn't hurt and my Lee Classic turret has 4 die stations. Can set it up with RCBS sizing, short powder die w/ auto drum, seating die and then Lee FCD (the 85gr Hornady SPRN has a crimp groove, might as well use it. Especially if I work up a H110 hot load).

Have you ever actually MEASURED the necks after resizing????????

I am still betting on a defective die.

Pinecone said:

Have you ever actually MEASURED the necks after resizing????????

I am still betting on a defective die.

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Yes. .329” OD at the mouth and .334” at the shoulder. Should be even if nothing else. My PPU new brass is .327” unsized along the entire neck. An S&B unfired round is .331” OD.

Hard to get exact measurements, but using the short shell holder the neck keeps that .329” OD to about halfway down the neck. Using the Lee shell holder it is like 1/4th of the way down the neck it starts to widen.

I did hear back with usual suggestions of don’t flare too much (I’ve tried with zero flare all the way up through ridiculous amounts).

Also send in the die with 3-4 fired cases and we’ll check it. I’ll probably still do that. Hopefully I don’t get a “oh it’s fine”.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/handloading-the-762x25-tokarev/374699

Pretty good read..

Mike3888 said:

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/handloading-the-762x25-tokarev/374699

Pretty good read..

Click to expand...

You know, I had read that article a few weeks ago. I guess I missed his “troubles”. Which sound EXACTLY like what I am struggling with. So a lee FCD that I have on the way might solve it. Maybe the RCBS dies will. Maybe a bit of both.

lazarus said:

Yes. .329” OD at the mouth and .334” at the shoulder. Should be even if nothing else. My PPU new brass is .327” unsized along the entire neck. An S&B unfired round is .331” OD.

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Call Lee.

My guess is, they will send you a new sizing die.

Pinecone said:

Call Lee.

My guess is, they will send you a new sizing die.

Click to expand...

Their response was send the sizing die with a few spent cases and they'll check it out.

mine is .327 flat for a very short length. About .100" down from the mouth.
This is likely why they mention to flair but not flair too much or you lose what little neck length you have for tension.
I notice that the Maximum case trim length on the Lee doc with dies says .988"
My Fired and maybe twice reloaded PPU cases are .978" right now.

lazarus said:

Their response was send the sizing die with a few spent cases and they'll check it out.

Click to expand...

And send you back a new die.

Lee will take care of things.