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Old January 19th, 2018, 11:29 AM #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rooster View Post
I think there are 3 barrels you can get on an AR-15: Thin (aka: light or pencil), Heavy, and notched (for the grenade launcher). I don't believe you can flute the thin barrel (not enough material to flute... If there was enough material it would not be a "thin/light/pencil" barrel). Nor can you flute the notched barrel (you can't flute the notch). So only the heavy barrel can be fluted. If this is true, then all fluted barrels are, by default, Heavy.
That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.

It is entirely permissible to draft a law that says something intellectually absurd like "for purposes of this statute, the sun rises in the west." Within the context of that statute, if the issue is raised, you would talk about the sun rising in the west. It defies logic, but doing so satisfies the requirements of that particular law. At all other times, you talk about the sun rising in the east.
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Old January 19th, 2018, 11:33 AM #72
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Old January 20th, 2018, 08:26 AM #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyE View Post
That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.

It is entirely permissible to draft a law that says something intellectually absurd like "for purposes of this statute, the sun rises in the west." Within the context of that statute, if the issue is raised, you would talk about the sun rising in the west. It defies logic, but doing so satisfies the requirements of that particular law. At all other times, you talk about the sun rising in the east.
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Old January 20th, 2018, 11:15 AM #74
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Spot on!
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Old January 20th, 2018, 11:31 AM #75
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I have 2 "spr" uppers one with a Douglass and ome with a kreiger. Both shoot .5moa consitently. The only difference I can tell between the two is the kreiger is easier to clean and from what everyone tells me will last longer.
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Old January 20th, 2018, 01:52 PM #76
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See, now that is a reasonable, believable group. About 2" or so at 50yds? So 4-5" at 100yds, which I believe is the original military specification for precision from a rack-grade M16A2 with green tip.

You probably shot to the maximum mechanical precision of that rifle.
Not necessarily. And that group may be improved by just replacing the trigger (I'm presuming it is a stock milspec trigger.) Maryland compliant barrels must be heavy and Heavy barrels disipate heat better than light barrels reducing shot stringing which opens groups. I have been amazed at how many normal heavy barrel ARs can shoot 1 MOA or at least close to that with the proper ammo and a decent trgger. Furthermore, most people shoot significantly better with a telescopic sight...presuming they use reasonably good technique. Not trying to downsale you from a match barrel by any means...but I have been pretty impressed since I entered the AR world 2 to 3 years ago (when I finally built out my 2 lowers purchased in 2013.) To be sure, one build is with target accuracy in mind although the other is basically just a Windham HBC upper on an Adcor lower built out with CMMG buikd kit with the trigger pull somewhat improved wuth JP springs.
Recently I just slapped together a PSA 10.5 in pistol upper and pistol lower with a brace in 9mm...just cause I thought it might be neat to teach others on it. After sight in I shot a group around 3/4 in at 50 yds with plain ole AM Eagle 9mm ball. I was shooting off sand bags but was stunned I shot so well with a trigger that is so so at best and simple MBUS sights co witnessing through a cheap Bushnell TRS 25 red dot. My build that is mostly RRA components shoots under an inch at 100 yds with plain Am Eagle 55 gr 5.56 ( it is only a 1 in. 8 twist...haven't tried heavy bullets about 62 gr...but wouldn' t expect optimal performance with > 70 gr. The again...who knows). My point: dont underestimate the potential accuracy of a decent heavy bbl build. I never expected results like I have seen with some of these rifles. For years I expected AR accuracy to be similar or only marginally better than my mini14 ( 3 1/2 to 4" at 100 yds with my best loads). My bolt action Rem 700 Varmint in 223 doesn't shoot appreciably better than my RRA with a match barrel can...and I have to use reloads fireformed to the chamber with meticulous 1 shell at a time loading to acheive that better accuracy). The only truly $hit AR I have shot are a couple pencil barrels with pretty crappy triggers and a pistol length 5.56 owned by a buddy that I couldn't do better than a couple inches at 50 yds using MBUS ...also having a pretty crappy trigger.

Good luck on your build. Sounds like you are asking the right questions.
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Old January 21st, 2018, 09:22 AM #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyE View Post
That won't satisfy MSP, because they are not interested in "heavy" the way a person on the street commonly thinks of it. To everyday folks, heavy is the opposite of light. We are not talking about the commonly understood meaning of "heavy," we talking about the world of law. For purposes of post-FSA AR-15 barrel legality, "heavy" means a barrel that is marked "HBAR," or is marketed as such, without any regard whatsoever for how much the barrel actually weighs, or how large in diameter it is.
Heavy is NOT defined in the law. So your whole first paragraph is incorrect.

MSP has issued GUIDANCE that if a barrel is marked or advertised heavy, they say it meets the law. But that is NOT in the FSA 2013, nor in case law.

Yes, I can see the state's attorney arguing that a barrel that is not marked heavy is illegal, when it is heavier and thicker than one that is marked HBAR.

Yes, if you use a barrel not marked or advertised as heavy, you are at risk of being the test case, but if the profile is truly heavy, I can't see any case against you moving forward.

But each person has their own risk level.
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