Mak for home defense

I don't understand why a knowledgeable, informed person would pick a P64 as a first choice for home defense. If it's the best available, that's one thing. It's probably a better weapon than the Navy Colt cartridge conversions which Wild Bill Hickok used: similar power, better capacity, similar sights, worse trigger. If it's the best thing available, ok, but why go out of your way to chose it?

A dirty little secret of these C&R guns: a LOT of them have mechanical problems and reliability issues. That's not a problem in a range toy, but if needed for a serious bet your life on it tool, it at least needs to be checked thoroughly. It's a fifty year old, used clunker. The trigger sucks, even with replacement springs. The sights suck. The mag release sucks. The shooting qualities suck. The blowback action is unnecessarily violent, and gives the illusion that the weapon is more powerful than it actually is.

It should not be carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off, because it is not drop safe. That rules it out as a defensive choice, except as an emergency stop gap. A defensive handgun should be a one-handed point and shoot tool.

So, other than as an intellectual "what if" discussion topic, why are these second rate obsolescent clunkers being considered for a life and death rescue tool?

I love old guns for their historic and technological wonderment, but I have modern guns of proven reliability for unromantic practical uses.

Threeband said:

I don't understand why a knowledgeable, informed person would pick a P64 as a first choice for home defense. If it's the best available, that's one thing. It's probably a better weapon than the Navy Colt cartridge conversions which Wild Bill Hickok used: similar power, better capacity, similar sights, worse trigger. If it's the best thing available, ok, but why go out of your way to chose it?

A dirty little secret of these C&R guns: a LOT of them have mechanical problems and reliability issues. That's not a problem in a range toy, but if needed for a serious bet your life on it tool, it at least needs to be checked thoroughly. It's a fifty year old, used clunker. The trigger sucks, even with replacement springs. The sights suck. The mag release sucks. The shooting qualities suck. The blowback action is unnecessarily violent, and gives the illusion that the weapon is more powerful than it actually is.

It should not be carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off, because it is not drop safe. That rules it out as a defensive choice, except as an emergency stop gap. A defensive handgun should be a one-handed point and shoot tool.

So, other than as an intellectual "what if" discussion topic, why are these second rate obsolescent clunkers being considered for a life and death rescue tool?

I love old guns for their historic and technological wonderment, but I have modern guns of proven reliability for unromantic practical uses.

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Egg Zachary which is why you should get rid of that slinky lil Brazilian you've been hiding...........just saying

Threeband said:

I don't understand why a knowledgeable, informed person would pick a P64 as a first choice for home defense. If it's the best available, that's one thing. It's probably a better weapon than the Navy Colt cartridge conversions which Wild Bill Hickok used: similar power, better capacity, similar sights, worse trigger. If it's the best thing available, ok, but why go out of your way to chose it?

A dirty little secret of these C&R guns: a LOT of them have mechanical problems and reliability issues. That's not a problem in a range toy, but if needed for a serious bet your life on it tool, it at least needs to be checked thoroughly. It's a fifty year old, used clunker. The trigger sucks, even with replacement springs. The sights suck. The mag release sucks. The shooting qualities suck. The blowback action is unnecessarily violent, and gives the illusion that the weapon is more powerful than it actually is.

It should not be carried with a round in the chamber and the safety off, because it is not drop safe. That rules it out as a defensive choice, except as an emergency stop gap. A defensive handgun should be a one-handed point and shoot tool.

So, other than as an intellectual "what if" discussion topic, why are these second rate obsolescent clunkers being considered for a life and death rescue tool?

I love old guns for their historic and technological wonderment, but I have modern guns of proven reliability for unromantic practical uses.

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More YUP!

Here's a range report I posted seven years ago, comparing the P64 and the LCP.


https://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=629671&postcount=6

I still like the LCP within its specialized niche: a reliable little "better than nothing" I can easily carry unnoticed in my pocket. I occasionally carry it around the house when I want to be armed without alarming my over-anxious wife.

Here was my conclusion on the P64 seven years ago:

I think the Polish pistol is second-rate as a belt-holster gun. It's a little too big for the pocket, both trigger pulls are just wrong, and the sights are poorly thought out.

If I were going to carry something as big as the Pole, I would look for something a little closer to first rate. Going from deep-concealment/pocket carry to IWB carry really opens up a lot of options. With those increased options, do you want to stake your life on an outdated, budget priced East European knockoff?

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mopar92 said:

Egg Zachary which is why you should get rid of that slinky lil Brazilian you've been hiding...........just saying

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I do need to thin the herd... My Bohemian Bombshell languishes neglected in the dark.

If you want something in that form factor and caliber that is affordable and reliable, I would recommend looking at the Bersa Thunder 380.

I'd be very comfortable using a Bulgarian Makarov for home defense, especially if my other choices were .380 ACP or .22 LR handguns. They can be found in fairly pristine shape and have a reputation for reliable function. For me, they work really well in point shooting. By contrast, I sold a CZ-82 and P64 (both in excellent condition) because I shot them less well. I use the proceeds to buy more Bulgarian Makarovs. I would say that their major shortcomings for me include magazine capacity (not that I feel bad with 8 rounds) and the mag release mechanism. The sights aren't great, but as I said, I shoot them accurately despite this. I've collectively shot more than a thousand rounds through several of my Bulgarian Makarovs (including previously unused and one that likely had thousands of rounds before I bought). I've never had an issue, using ammo from all kinds of vendors. Anyway, this thread reminds me that Underwood has a sale this weekend and they have a new 9x18 defense loading.

The guy at Military Arms Channel seems to like the Bulgarian Makarovs as well. This first video doesn't represent conditions that my Bulgarian Maks are treated to, but I'm not surprised to see them emerge like a watch from a Timex commercial after the abuse.



Another just because I'm a fan of these guns ...



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I keep a CZ82 by my bed. I trust it.

Just buy a nice new CZ and be done with it.

Id trust some surplus but only after I had inspected it in detail, replaced critical springs and wearables, tested it for a couple hundred rounds etc.

mopar92 said:

I have no idea who is going to break into my house or try to kill me. I have no idea if they will have friends or be alone. I have no idea if I'll even have time to slip my glasses on.

Therefore I want and recommend a big gun with a bunch of bullets.

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There's a lot of wisdom in that. To that end, the CZ would be better if OP is set on a Mak round. Otherwise, 9mm/40/45/10mm/38sp/357mag would be my suggestions for a pistol round.

arbud said:

Thanks Three band. Just a personal thing I would never have a round in the chamber of any gun

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To each their own, but I'd urge you to reconsider.

knastera said:

If you want something in that form factor and caliber that is affordable and reliable, I would recommend looking at the Bersa Thunder 380.//uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170903/1170f2e359bad45d3c7a7136780da5ab.jpg

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Excellent choice. 100% agreed. For social work (concealed carry).

But for home defense, I think he can do a bit better.

Threeband said:

I do need to thin the herd... My Bohemian Bombshell languishes neglected in the dark.

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I would treat her well, feed her well and make sure she gets plenty of sun and a nice tan.

My thoughts seem to differ from most here, my choice for carry around the house is a P64. I carry it all the time I'm home, uncle Mike's pocket holster, one in the pipe, six in the mag. I guess that with the safety off in might not be drop safe, which is why I have the safety on. I own two and both have been most reliable at the range. I have not swapped out the springs as I want that extra pull on the first shot, although IMHO if I need to shoot it in a defense situation I truly doubt that with an adrenaline rush I will even notice it. If I wanted to wear a belt and holster around the house, I would go to the safe and pick something in a larger size, but in my robe or sweat pants pocket my E. German mak and Cz 82 are a bit too large. If the 9 x 18 round is not enough to deal with the situation, it should by me enough time and space to reach a 12 gauge or other long gun. As for the sights I'm confident I can hit a man sized target at in house distances.

Whether carrying in the house or out and about there is always a trade off in comfort, capacity and caliber, unless your going in a full battle kit (which in Baltimore, that may not be enough).

That is my two shekels worth of opinion on this subject.

I like the fact that the 50 yr rule now extends into early S&W autos. I have a model 59 that's stupid reliable. The same can be said for its model 39 brother. Me, I use an early Colt Combat Commander in 45 ACP as my house pistol (A Mossberg 590 is the long gun of choice in the house). The Colt 1911 platform is what I shot in competition in my youth and I'm totally comfortable with it. In a stressful situation I can't think of better for me. When I had my CC permit I used a Browning BDA in .380 built by Beretta as my summer carry (Colt was tough to conceal in light clothing). Never a failure to fire and feed. Super reliable.
Totally agree that most C&R pistols would need mechanical freshening and testing to be even considered for this critical role. I've got a pile of 'em and you see what I use. BTW, the Combat Commander is anything but stock. It's a very early model and has been significantly modified for reliability. OTB it wasn't nearly as reliable as I needed.

Minuteman said:

Excellent choice. 100% agreed. For social work (concealed carry).



But for home defense, I think he can do a bit better.

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I agree. I'm just saying that if he is looking for either the PPK form factor that the Mak and Bersa share, the very manageable recoil of a 380/9x18, or cost containment, the Bersa is a great way to go. My home defense gun is a Taurus PT-809 with 18 rounds of G-2 RIP and a 17 round mag of Sig hollow points just in case.

I figured it might make more sense to tack this in this thread rather than start a new one.

I get why some would have reservations about using C&R guns in general, and 9x18 ones in particular, for home defense. But another thought I saw echoed in this thread was a superiority of the CZ82 over the PM Makarova. I own a Soviet and a Russian PM, but have no experience with the CZ. Could someone in the know explain?

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I'm not familiar with the Makarov, but have several CZ 82s.

The CZ 82 has a twelve round magazine, and a fantastic double action trigger, like you'd expect on an old Smith & Wesson revolver. It has large, usable sights. It has a non-hammer drop safety, which allows "cocked and locked" carry. Downside is you are on your own with no training wheels lowering that hammer, as Bikebreath noted. It has an ambidextrous American style mag release button. Downside is it's a bit gritty and inconsistent. Sometimes mags pop out and sometimes they don't. I have new CZ parts to rebuild the mag release, but haven't gotten around to it. By the way, new parts are available from CZ. I've also replaced some of my magazine floorplates with CZ75 floorplates. They're oversized and rubbery, and blend in well. I'll see if I can find a picture.

Here they are. All three holsters and the mag pouch are CZ. The one on the right is a nice leather thumbsnap. Note the oversized CZ75 floorplates on some, standard CZ82 flat floorplate in the middle gun.


I've heard the Czechs designed the pistol for their own +p+ version of the 9x18, by the way.

On trusting your life to old used guns: My first CZ 82 arrived with the firing pin stick in the forward position. If I hadn't noticed, the gun would have gone full auto when I chambered the first round. (I know how to function check, and I only load a single round in a new semi-auto anyway.) Fixed it by disassembling and scraping crud out of firing pin channel with a miniature round file. I would trust this pistol for self defense.
My second CZ 82 has a defective trigger linkage. Hard to describe, and the gun can be fired, but it needs to be fixed. Only usable in an emergency.
The third CZ82 has a non-ambidextrous, reversed magazine release. It only works when pushed right to left. I actually prefer to use my right trigger finger on the mag release anyway, so it's actually a feature for me, not a flaw. In fact, I have both my S&W M&Ps set up the same way. (One thing I don't like about Glocks is the non-reversible mag release.)

arbud said:

Thanks Three band. Just a personal thing I would never have a round in the chamber of any gun

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Me either...

The safety of everyone around me is always my top priority...

I use a combloc PPK clone for HD/property carry. FEG PA-63. The reasons? I've never had a malfunction with it (well over 1500 rounds through it and never a jam, FTF, FTE, FTRB, stovepipe, etc) I'm better with it than any of my other pistols, and I keep the mags in the home safe loaded with critical defense. Now, there's always a back-up nearby as well (shotgun) with PDX foster-and-buck rounds loaded should I need more firepower.

Our HD scenario is barricading ourselves and my son in the bedroom wing of the house (it's separate from the main wing of the house with a steel fire door in between) calling 911 on one cell and calling my neighbor (MoCo PD) on the other. I keep a burner in the bedside table in case I leave my phone outside the bedroom. only attainable entrance to that portion of the house is via a single window which we can keep covered. The others are all too high off the ground for someone to enter through. Chances are, in a home invasion, I'd never have to fire a shot.

sgt23preston said:

Me either...

The safety of everyone around me is always my top priority...

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Perhaps you should review the story about the father who didn't have a round in the chamber and it got him and his son killed.

My primary gun is a traditional double action with a decocker. I keep one in the chamber with it decocked and on safe. Plus it is in a locked box next to the bed. I can get it out in the dark and take the safety off in two seconds. I think that is very safe. My downstairs gun is a S&W revolver loaded with Hornady Critical Duty. That's also safe and in a lock box that I can open in the dark. In addition to the lack of readiness that not having a round chambered brings, having to rack your slide completely removes any tactical advantage because now you have given away your location and the fact that you are armed.
My opinion and my practice. If you insist on leaving the chamber empty, I highly recommend practicing racking in the dark from wherever you have your gun stored.