The Importance of Magazine Rotation

JamesDong · Jun 4, 2021

Mags DO in fat wear out in time. All 3 of my period correct P08 WW2 mags wouldn't function, replaced with modern aftermarkets, no malfunction.
No idea of the long term history of them but was able to sell on ebay for 150.00 each with disclosure they didn't have enough ass on the spring.

Magnumite · Jun 4, 2021

“Took me a few minutes to remember the gentleman's name . Then I wrote most of a post , but fell asleep before hitting " post " button .

Mike Izumi - LFI graduate , wrote a few articles in gunzines . In his Day Job , he's a Metallurgical Engineer . He once wrote a feature article on Spring Fatigue ( IIRC for Am Handgunner , but you could likely find it on the internet .

The Gist included -

Springs fatigue from Cycling .

Virgin springs will take an initial set , but after that , they can remain compressed essentially indefinitely w/o ill effects .”

This ^^^

I shoot 1911’s alot. Older standard tube length 8 round mags are rebuilt with 7 round followers and springs...because there is more spring. Back to proper spring for the gun.

My practice mag springs crap out long before my proven match mags. Because of the amount of cycling. My house guns mags remain loaded and always feed when taken to the range and shot with those mags. Not near as much mag use.

Replacing original springs with Wolff extra power springs yield longer time between mag spring changes. Pickup an SR1911 and push down on the follower - a lesson is there.

I have used a few Ceiner conversion mag springs and have a couple new ones in the parts box. I can’t estimate the number of rounds through Ceiner mag #1. It gets a new spring here and there.

Tebonski · Jun 4, 2021

Most guys have more than one magazine so why not rotate them?

Another thing. I used to shoot PPC back in the day. Bought several Safariland speedloaders. Kept them loaded with dummy rounds to practice reloading on the clock. Recently checked and they're useless now from being under tension. None of my HKS were damaged. If your life isn't worth rotating mags and ammo then that's your choice.

trickg · Jun 4, 2021

JamesDong said:
Mags DO in fact wear out in time. All 3 of my period correct P08 WW2 mags wouldn't function, replaced with modern aftermarkets, no malfunction.
No idea of the long term history of them but was able to sell on ebay for 150.00 each with disclosure they didn't have enough ass on the spring.

Are you quite certain that the issue is that the magazines were worn out and not some other reason? I've not heard of people having that kind of issue with period correct 1911 magazines.

Blaster229 · Jun 4, 2021

JamesDong said:
Mags DO in fat wear out in time. All 3 of my period correct P08 WW2 mags wouldn't function, replaced with modern aftermarkets, no malfunction.
No idea of the long term history of them but was able to sell on ebay for 150.00 each with disclosure they didn't have enough ass on the spring.

So you are saying that mags(springs) made during WW2 are of the same quality of stuff today?

jaredm1 · Jun 4, 2021

wabbit said:
I suspect the OP is a new shooter and is susceptible to these types of myths. Anyone with some experience shooting will know this is far fetched B.S.

Nah, he made this BS claim in another thread and got called on it.

He started this new one to double-down on it and share his "wisdom" :tdown:

Blaster229 · Jun 4, 2021

trickg said:
Am I missing something? I see two springs that are functionally identical.

Those springs are 2 wires coiled around a smaller, almost needle like wire/spring which I couldn't find a picture of. I just circled the end where it would poke out.
It shows that "something" is happening to the spring because of compression/use. Most likely those 2 actual outer springs are compressing smaller than the center spring. So it needs to be replaced.

JamesDong · Jun 4, 2021

trickg said:
Are you quite certain that the issue is that the magazines were worn out and not some other reason? I've not heard of people having that kind of issue with period correct 1911 magazines.

These were LUGER mags as I said, not 1911. P08's obviously NEED a strong spring... hence the loading tool they were issues with. They might have cycles the first 2 rounds and that was it.

JamesDong · Jun 4, 2021

Blaster229 said:
So you are saying that mags(springs) made during WW2 are of the same quality of stuff today?

Original P08's........... probably better than today's. They were WORN OUT from 80 or so years, the new aftermarkets work flawlessly. I doubt I'll get 80 years from the new ones, I also doubt my grand kids will either.

alucard0822 · Jun 4, 2021

E.Shell said:
Of course "...it worked", no one is going to admit their Grandpa left them a dysfunctional piece of crap for a legacy.

this is awesome

alucard0822 · Jun 4, 2021

Blaster229 said:
Those springs are 2 wires coiled around a smaller, almost needle like wire/spring which I couldn't find a picture of. I just circled the end where it would poke out.
It shows that "something" is happening to the spring because of compression/use. Most likely those 2 actual outer springs are compressing smaller than the center spring. So it needs to be replaced.

Twisted wire/stranded wire springs can have a more consistent compression range than solid wire, and if they break, you usually preserve some function. Problem is they can wear, unravel, and a problem isn't always obvious without checking the spring closely. I had a high mileage Sig that was still running fine with 2 of the 3 strands in the spring broken. Great design, provided it's inspected, and as you said, the first hint that it is unraveling or a strand broke is that a single strand is poking out on the end from the bundle.

trickg · Jun 4, 2021

Blaster229 said:
Those springs are 2 wires coiled around a smaller, almost needle like wire/spring which I couldn't find a picture of. I just circled the end where it would poke out.
It shows that "something" is happening to the spring because of compression/use. Most likely those 2 actual outer springs are compressing smaller than the center spring. So it needs to be replaced.

Does it actually "need" to be replaced, or would it most likely continue to function correctly for thousands and thousands of additional rounds through the pistol?

I understand preventive maintenance, but functionally there's likely nothing wrong with it.

This isn't to say that springs on pistols don't break. If memory serves, one of the issues that the original Colt SAA had was that the hammer flat spring would break, which is why Bill Ruger changed the design to incorporate a coil spring. However, we're also talking about metallurgy from nearly 150 years ago - I'm not sure that modern flat springs in SAA style revolvers have the same issue.

Blaster229 · Jun 4, 2021

trickg said:
Does it actually "need" to be replaced, or would it most likely continue to function correctly for thousands and thousands of additional rounds through the pistol?

I understand preventive maintenance, but functionally there's likely nothing wrong with it.

This isn't to say that springs on pistols don't break. If memory serves, one of the issues that the original Colt SAA had was that the hammer flat spring would break, which is why Bill Ruger changed the design to incorporate a coil spring. However, we're also talking about metallurgy from nearly 150 years ago - I'm not sure that modern flat springs in SAA style revolvers have the same issue.

Nothing for us at the agency to replace springs. Might as well do it since it didn't come from the factory expanded that way. We also replaced barrels at 20k rounds.

trickg · Jun 4, 2021

Blaster229 said:
Nothing for us at the agency to replace springs. Might as well do it since it didn't come from the factory expanded that way. We also replaced barrels at 20k rounds.

I can see that - for guns with those kinds of round counts, preventive maintenance would be key. Many shooters won't see 20,000 rounds collectively in all of their guns in over a decade. Hell, I bet I don't shoot 20,000 rounds in all of my guns in a decade.

Blaster229 · Jun 4, 2021

trickg said:
I can see that - for guns with those kinds of round counts, preventive maintenance would be key. Many shooters won't see 20,000 rounds collectively in all of their guns in over a decade. Hell, I bet I don't shoot 20,000 rounds in all of my guns in a decade.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of shooting.

Magnumite · Jun 4, 2021

trickg said:
Are you quite certain that the issue is that the magazines were worn out and not some other reason? I've not heard of people having that kind of issue with period correct 1911 magazines.

It occurs. I have two period correct 1911 mags with cracks at the base of the rear of the feed lips. There were several measures taken to resolve that problem. I have several mags with fatigued, worn, spread feed lips, GI replacement mags included. One dropped the welded on base plate, though that appeared to be a faulty weld.

A faulty extractor can destroy a mag as well.

lazarus · Jun 5, 2021

trickg said:
I can see that - for guns with those kinds of round counts, preventive maintenance would be key. Many shooters won't see 20,000 rounds collectively in all of their guns in over a decade. Hell, I bet I don't shoot 20,000 rounds in all of my guns in a decade.

I mean, 10 years is a long time. This past 18 months I haven’t been shoot nearly as much, but I was running about 2000-3000 rounds a year previously. If you include 22lr (about 1000-1200 of that).

So I probably do shoot 20k rounds in a decade of centerfire. Certainly not in one gun. Even my AR and Glock 17 which are my most commonly shot center fires of any of my guns I doubt I’d put much more than 5k in a decade through either of them.

Muleskinner · Jun 5, 2021

joppaj said:
He's claiming that most LE rotate mags every 90 days? I call BS.

I know we didn't. The first 9 mm issued to me was a p226. Since I never discharged my weapon on duty I had the same issue ammo from the day they handed me the weapon magazine and ammunition to the day I turned my service sidearm back into the quartermaster. That was a little over 5 years.

trickg · Jun 5, 2021

Blaster229 said:
Quite frankly, I'm tired of shooting.

It's interesting to read that, because it echoes what my nephew said.

He is/was into guns - my Dad had initiated that when he was little, and he continued to pursue it in his early adult years. Then he went active duty special forces in the Army.

The last time I talked with him I asked him if he was doing much shooting, and he said that he shoots so much for work that he tries not to bring it home with him.

I guess when shooting becomes what you do for a living, it's no longer the draw it has when you are limited on how much you can do it.

Blaster229 · Jun 5, 2021

trickg said:
I guess when shooting becomes what you do for a living, it's no longer the draw it has when you are limited on how much you can do it.

It's not even that. The monotony of "work shooting". Hell, on qual days we could stay on the range as long as we wanted for the most part.
We usually just shot our quals without warm ups just to get the rest of the day off.
But yeah, I have no desire to go to an inside range and shoot tiny little groups. Outdoor range with multiple targets and moving, teaching someone, is the shooting I enjoy. But I can do without setting crap up just for myself and cleaning it all up.
When you're free of knowing that you don't have to have sweet, tiny groups in a self defense shot, it's much more relaxing.
I'm not sure what I even said here sitting in the parking lot of Harris Teeter on my cell lol

The Importance of Magazine Rotation

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