Machining an AR lower from a forging - pic heavy

Norton · Dec 31, 2007

E.Shell,

All I can say is that you are a very patient man and very skilled with that equipment. This may be one of the best posts of all time here.

Simon Yu · Dec 31, 2007

Agreed. Seeing one of those in natural steel coloration is neat.

E.Shell · Jan 2, 2008

Bump, for the rest of the pictures and some additional info installed this morning.

:beer:

Norton said:
E.Shell,

All I can say is that you are a very patient man and very skilled with that equipment. This may be one of the best posts of all time here.

Thank you very much Norton, for your very kind (though rather strong) words . . .

You may be pleased to know that I have no rhythm . . . :sad20:

Simon Yu said:
Agreed. Seeing one of those in natural steel coloration is neat.

Thank you Simon.

Though it does look like steel in the white, it is actually aluminum alloy: 7075-T6.

Lunchbox · Jan 3, 2008

Just out of curiosity... what do the laws say about someone purchasing the 0% lower and then "renting" your shop space and guidance?

Just curious.....

SigMatt · Jan 3, 2008

As I understand the ATF regulations, a home-built firearm cannot be sold or transferred at all as doing so would constitute "manufacturing" at some later date. I believe personal use means exactly that. You get to use it and if you don't want it anymore, destruction is your only option with homebuilt arms.

haole_boySS, this is an area that the citizen acts at his peril with regard to firearms. I've had friends inquire about me making receivers for them (AK and AR) from 80% and I refuse. I'll look over their shoulder and point but will not touch their work-in-progress or help drill a hole for fear of being accused of engaging in manufacturing. I suspect the ATF would destroy anyone homebuilder they felt was acting even a mm out of line.

If you want to do a home-build, look at 80% AR lowers. With the proper jig and a drill press, you can finish them to 100%. The 0% to 100% is more satisfying though if you have the tools.

I am highly impressed! I couldn't do this. I'm sticking to 80% builds.

Matt

coinboy · Jan 3, 2008

mpickering said:
As I understand the ATF regulations, a home-built firearm cannot be sold or transferred at all as doing so would constitute "manufacturing" at some later date. I believe personal use means exactly that. You get to use it and if you don't want it anymore, destruction is your only option with homebuilt arms.

haole_boySS, this is an area that the citizen acts at his peril with regard to firearms. I've had friends inquire about me making receivers for them (AK and AR) from 80% and I refuse. I'll look over their shoulder and point but will not touch their work-in-progress or help drill a hole for fear of being accused of engaging in manufacturing. I suspect the ATF would destroy anyone homebuilder they felt was acting even a mm out of line.

If you want to do a home-build, look at 80% AR lowers. With the proper jig and a drill press, you can finish them to 100%. The 0% to 100% is more satisfying though if you have the tools.

I am highly impressed! I couldn't do this. I'm sticking to 80% builds.

Matt

Ok you CAN sell a homebuild according to ATF.

Look here:
http://www.akfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11774&highlight=sell+homebuild
I will post a seperate thread on this issue.
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=52170#post52170

Originally Posted by LESchwartz

To whom it may concern:

I am writing to request clarification regarding the ATF’s current legal stance regarding Hungarian AMD-63 and AMD-65 rifles. “Parts kits” from these rifles have recently begun appearing in the marketplace in large numbers. I have two specific questions regarding these rifles, and two more general questions regarding the “making” of firearms by a nonlicensee as mentioned in “Questions and Answers” section (A7) of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide (2000 edition). If any of these questions are inappropriate for your office, please simply refer me to the appropriate organization.

1) With reference to the parts listed in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 478 (formerly Part 178), section 478.39(c): You will note that the AMD-63 and AMD-65 both have a forward pistol grip attached to the lower handguard. Is this forward grip counted as part of the handguard, as part of the “pistol grip”, as an additional pistol grip, or is it uncounted?

Note that my question is narrowly focused on correctly “counting” this forward pistol grip.

2) With reference to assembling a working semiautomatic rifle from AMD-63 or AMD-65 parts, which is compliant with Title 18 USC § 922(r) and Title 18 USC § 922(v): Would such a rifle be considered a “machinegun” if the rifle were assembled using a commercially available semiautomatic trigger group as well as a receiver without mounting holes for an auto?sear?

3) With reference to a nonlicensee who assembles an otherwise legal semiautomatic rifle for their own personal use (non-NFA, and compliant with Title 18 USC § 922(r) and Title 18 USC § 922(v)), but who fabricates their own receiver: Are there any additional restrictions or prohibitions against the eventual sale or transfer of such a rifle to family members, heirs, or third parties?

Note: One of the many things I have been told is that a nonlicensee who fabricates a receiver may never transfer the resulting firearm, and that it must be destroyed in the event of the maker’s death. Thus, I am specifically interested in any record keeping, marking or labeling requirements, excise taxes, etc. necessary to have the ability to transfer or sell such a firearm.

4) Is a licensed collector who is not a licensed manufacturer considered a “nonlicensee” for the purposes of “making” a firearm?

While it is not my desire to cause your office any unnecessary workload, given the potentially serious consequences of even inadvertent violations of Federal Firearms law, I am left with little alternative. I have been unable to locate clear answers to these questions despite extensive research. And thus, I sincerely appreciate your efforts in responding to this letter.

Sincerely,

LESchwartz

Originally Posted by ATF

Dear Mr. LESchwartz:

This refers to your letter of July 27, 2004, to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), Firearms Technology Branch (FTB), in which you posed several questions. In general, you requested clarification regarding the classification of Hungarian AMD-63 and AMD-65 selective-fire rifle parts sets, as well as information regarding the manufacture of semiautomatic copies of these firearms.

As you know, the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. § 5845(b), defines the term “machinegun” as follows:

…any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. This term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.

Further, with respect to your inquiry regarding the classification of the forward grip of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 based on 27 CFR § 478.39 (formerly 178.39), you should be aware that this is an integral part of the forearm, and, consequently would serve as the “forearm” as listed in 478.39(c)(1 7).

Concerning the manufacture of a semiautomatic copy of the AMD-63 or AMD-65 selective-fire rifle, this is possible only if the receiver is redesigned and incapable of accommodating the original fire control components. Further, the firearm must be designed to operate from the closed-bolt position. The redesigned receiver may be manufactured from new material or from the remnants of properly destroyed receivers. Proper destruction entails the diagonal torch cutting of the receiver in three critical locations. Each cut must displace at least ¼ inch of material.

We should add that prior to utilizing sections of a destroyed receiver, the features that make it capable of firing automatically—the machinegun sear pin hole and the slotted right receiver rail must be removed.

Also, for your information, a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR § 478.92 (formerly 178.92).

Finally, a licensed collector may acquire, hold, or dispose of firearms classified as “curios or relics” as that term is defined in 27 CFR 478.11 (formerly 178.11). The collector’s license does not authorize the holder to manufacture a firearm for commercial resale.

For further details on issues related to your inquiry, please refer to the enclosed ATF publication, Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (ATF P 5300.4). The text of 27 CFR 478.41(d) (formerly 178.41) appears on page 53; that of 27 CFR 478.93 (formerly 178.93), on page 58.

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

Sterling Nixon

JeepDriver · Jan 5, 2008

I talked to a machinist today who shoots ath the range about this project.

He said there is a place on Eastern Ave that does hard coat anodizing. He is going to call me this week with the info on them.

E.Shell · Jan 7, 2008

Thank you Jeep, I appreciate any info you find. While I plan to try this myself, I would definitely be interested.

Just to try to get back on track with the original intent of this thread, clearly stated in the second sentence of my first post . . . :

I have begun this thread to show some of the pics and to discuss the process for those interested.

. . . I would ask (please!) that any discussion of the legalities and requirements of building for sale be discussed elsewhere.

First, the intended (technical) nature of the tread is rapidly getting cluttered with the (usually endless) legal debate aspect, and second, I do not intend to build any of these for sale and do not wish to create that impression here.

In addition to the lengthy post just above by Coinboy, he has a separate thread that he has been kind enough to start and link discussing the legal side of manufacturing, selling and marking firearms, and this would seem the more appropriate place to discuss these issues.

I do wish to debate it here, where I would prefer to talk exclusively about the mechanics of it, but I would point out that the response letter from ATF **DOES NOT** address the issue of whether a non-licensee may build and sell firearms. In fact, that portion of the question was evaded entirely, perhaps because it may have been considered obvious that one must have a manufacturing license to manufacture for sale.

It merely states that any firearm transferred or sold must be MARKED as per other sections of the law. The conditions of sale are not addressed at all, are very likely regulated by another portion of the law, and may well be limited to transfer or sale of the property once the home-builder is deceased. I don't know and, for the purposes of this thread, I don't care.

I DO know that what I build for myself DOES comply with the law, and as long as I build one for myself, I don't need a lawyer, legal degree or a manufacturing license. I do not have the personal legal understanding or resources to find out every nuance of this issue, and the work itself is far too complex and time consuming to even make it tempting to find out about, let alone do.

Thank you for your understanding on this issue guys. I really don't want to come off like an ass, but, I really do not want to create the image that I'm starting a business or trying to skirt the law here in any way either.

eddiek2000 · Jul 22, 2008

This is so cool. I wish I had the aptitude/mad skills for this.

Congrats E looks great!! :party29:

JeepDriver · Jul 22, 2008

Have you got these anodized yet?

E.Shell · Jul 22, 2008

No sir, been a *very* hectic last few months and I had back-burnered this part of the project. I DID get the misc. anodizing supplies and equipment I have on hand inventoried, and the missing stuff ordered . . . finally. Should be here within a week or so and I'll be coming down the home stretch then, LOL.

Kharn · Jul 22, 2008

I've done several 0% lowers, including anodizing them in the garage (being a chem eng actually came in handy

), I found using a large mill vise made things very easy for setup, as it was repeatable and no worries about a clamp slipping. A 4x4x4" (might be 5x5x5") and a 3x3x3" angle blocks let me set up to do the buffer vertical in a repeatable fashion (off the upper flat and using offsets to go off the side of the magazine well to guard against the reciever rotating). I do the back of the pistol grip boss when the lower is upside down, the same time I do the trigger guard slots.

For the buffer ring, I found a set of endmills from Grizzly that went from big to rediculous in 1/8" increments, I think it included 5/8" to 1 1/4" for like $20 ~5 years ago.

I wrote to the ATF Tech Branch to ask if making your own AR15 lower is legal, they responded in writing to the affirmative as long as I complied with the AWB (this was in ~2002, so obviously that provision no longer applies).

I've found most professional shops (non-gun businesses) will ask you to leave if you want them to do work on a black rifle in MD, even if you're going to stand and watch it be done, thus I had to learn how to anodize for my ARs and MIG weld for my AKs.

E.Shell · Jul 22, 2008

Kharn said:
I've done several 0% lowers, including anodizing them in the garage (being a chem eng actually came in handy )

LOL, that makes "1".

No degree, but I do have a little bit of leg up, by virtue of being friends with one of the partners that fine tuned the home process for Caswell, and wrote most of the text for Caswell Plating's anodize procedures.

. . . I found using a large mill vise made things very easy for setup, as it was repeatable and no worries about a clamp slipping.

The vise I have is not a Kurt :sad20:

, and therefore I was able to get more repeatable (and square) results using my side plates with an angle block. In fact, I go to great lengths not to use the imported vise I got with the mill.

A 4x4x4" (might be 5x5x5") and a 3x3x3" angle blocks let me set up to do the buffer vertical in a repeatable fashion (off the upper flat and using offsets to go off the side of the magazine well to guard against the reciever rotating).

I bore the buffer hole beginning with a 1" end mill, and then step it out with a boring head that I take out a little at a time to keep the size right, the finish good and load down, in deference to my small mill.

I do the back of the pistol grip boss when the lower is upside down, the same time I do the trigger guard slots.

If you can clear the clamping system and still keep a good grip, that would be about the same deal, maybe even easier to control/blend the mating surface with the PG pocket cuts.

For the buffer ring, I found a set of endmills from Grizzly that went from big to rediculous in 1/8" increments, I think it included 5/8" to 1 1/4" for like $20 ~5 years ago.

I've got a Grizzly catalog, I'll have to take a look. My R8 collet spindle limits me to 3/4" (or R8) shank tools.

I wrote to the ATF Tech Branch to ask if making your own AR15 lower is legal, they responded in writing to the affirmative as long as I complied with the AWB (this was in ~2002, so obviously that provision no longer applies).

Yeah, their FAQ reflects pretty much the same info. Probably ought to get a letter of my own to keep in the trap door. . .

I've found most professional shops (non-gun businesses) will ask you to leave if you want them to do work on a black rifle in MD, even if you're going to stand and watch it be done,

Yeah, that and the prohibitive cost of a one-off part to anodize. One of the guys here was quoted $100 to do a small 2x2x1 block of aluminum by one of the local companies - more than a completed part of similar form/function would cost in total. When I get my line running, I'll do that for him while I'm doing my own stuff.

. . . thus I had to learn how to anodize for my ARs and MIG weld for my AKs.

Same here. I'm also going to strip an upper and anodize a lower and upper together in OD. Be unique. One source of anodizing info shows some pretty fancy stuff, like fades and such, be nifty to fade black to OD to make it camo.

Thanks for the info and your comments, Kharn!

XCRmonger · Jul 23, 2008

some of you guys amaze me. wow.

coinboy · Jul 23, 2008

Hey E,

How long did it take you to complete the receiver? Have you built it into a gun yet?

Rob

trapture · Jul 23, 2008

Wow Ed, what a great job!

E.Shell · Jul 23, 2008

coinboy said:
Hey E,

How long did it take you to complete the receiver?

Hours and hours. . .

Hard to tell for sure, but I'd say it's taken about 10 hours for me to do one piece start to finish, but, every one I do goes faster and more smoothly.

Have you built it into a gun yet?

Yes, have assembled and function checked three of them - no problemo.

Don't want to actually run them until I get them anodized. According to UPS tracking, my last little bit of anodizing stuff should be here by Monday, so, I'm soon off into my next haz-mat phase . . . at least my damn carbon footprint isn't getting any bigger. :innocent0

trapture said:
Wow Ed, what a great job!

Thank you!

Kharn · Jul 26, 2008

E.Shell:
I've got three rifles built on 0% lowers in my safe right now, plus some for a rainy day.

coinboy · Jul 26, 2008

Hey E,

Can we see some pic's of the completed weapon built on a 0% receiver?

Kharn · Jul 28, 2008

From my dinner thread on ARf:

0% lower
LMT 14.5" upper with welded Phantom (5C2? I forget)
Surefire G2 with Z31 (?) clicky tailcap in a Viking Tactics mount
Tangodown foregrip
RRA Dominator 2 rear sight
EOTech 552
Magpul M93 (Pre-A USMC Demo with rack number) stock

Machining an AR lower from a forging - pic heavy

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