Coffee Talk: Pistol Operations

Huckleberry · Aug 14, 2008

It been discussed about SA (1911A1) vs DA/SA and DAO so for a new twist

how about DA/SA or DAO vs Striker Fired (Glocks, XD, et al)? What's your opinion.

joppaj · Aug 14, 2008

My Glock goes bang every time. My Rugers go bang every time, (SA/DA and SA only). I like both systems, but I'm a wheelgunner at heart.

novus collectus · Aug 14, 2008

I love my 1911A1, but I feel nervous about cocked with the safety on still. It is a super easy hammer to cock with the thumb, but I am not sure that is ideal in an emergency.
My CZ52 has a hard as heck hammer to cock with my thumb, so I keep it cocked with the safety on (one of my home defense guns). I treat it like nitro glycerine though and only touch it when I really have to.
My CZ82 is DA/SA and I love it. It is accruate for the second and following shots, but in the middle of the night if I grab it for defense against a home invader it takes no thought or extra effort to get the first shot off I would think.

Don't have any striker fired guns, but I can see the appeal of a Glock. However, a DA/SA would serve the same purpose basically if not as easy to control for accuracy because of the trigger pull.

I think DAO should be reserved for pocket guns and concealed revolvers. I have a few hammerless (encased hammer) revolvers that are of course DAO. THey have a purpose, but for up close and personal mostly.

alucard0822 · Aug 14, 2008

In most any fight with a handgun I would rather have a DAO without a manual safety. Safe to carry cocked with one in the chamber(assuming the holster covers the trigger), no relied upon safety to disengage by accident, and the same long smooth pull every time, enough pull weight to keep from firing accidentally, and at least for me helps to concentrate on the basics of trigger control and sight alignment. It can also be drawn and fired without any additional steps. Weither it has a striker, or LDA/DAK type hammer mechanism (carried partially cocked) is more a function of the model pistol. Where a DAO pistol may have a 7lb trigger with .3" of travel, with a constant reset point, a DA/SA pistol may have a 10lb .5" DA trigger, then a 4lb .2" SA trigger, and normally includes a type of manual safety. I have always found it very difficult to train to shoot "the jump" from DA to SA well, and under stress, there is a good chance of the first shot missing, and the rest hitting, or the first hitting, and the second missing. I always thought I could shoot a SA pistol better, especially while rapid fire, but I found out the opposite is true, I can slow fire a SA better, but the steady pull of a DAO helps smooth out rapid fire strings, and as a result, I can put more lead on target at a faster pace.

xd40c · Aug 14, 2008

For me it depends on what I'm doing. I like the SA/DA for acuracy, but they're not for me when carrying. I have 3 DAO weapons and appreciate the decreased size and lack of a hammer to hang up on a shirt or jacket. But I have to tell you, I do not like the weight or pull of the triggers. I understand we they do it that way, but I just would appreciate a lighter trigger.

mikec · Aug 14, 2008

My first semi auto was a 1982 Colt Lightweight Commander. Great gun. At that time there were no readily available plastic guns. (YES, the HK VP70 was out but it was rare.) I learned how to use a 1911 and I still like "cocked and locked" over any other method. Give me a 1911, the BHP, a CZ 75 or HK USP V1. I don't like the heavy trigger pull of a DA. Yes I know I could lower the hammer on the CZ and carry it that way, I won't. Same for when I had the HK USP. The USP variant 1 has a decocker, but I rarely lowered the hammer on a live round. I had that thing hammer back, safety on.

joppaj · Aug 15, 2008

I see where a lot of folks are going with this and I admit, I've never given it much thought. I'm very comfortable carrying loaded with one in the chamber on either style I have. I actually don't consider my Super Blackhawk as much of a viable self defense gun mainly because I have to take the extra step of cocking back a hammer. I'm used to my Glock 22 and my GP-100, draw and fire, not draw, charge weapon and fire.

alucard0822 · Aug 15, 2008

mikec said:
My first semi auto was a 1982 Colt Lightweight Commander. Great gun. At that time there were no readily available plastic guns. (YES, the HK VP70 was out but it was rare.) I learned how to use a 1911 and I still like "cocked and locked" over any other method. Give me a 1911, the BHP, a CZ 75 or HK USP V1. I don't like the heavy trigger pull of a DA. Yes I know I could lower the hammer on the CZ and carry it that way, I won't. Same for when I had the HK USP. The USP variant 1 has a decocker, but I rarely lowered the hammer on a live round. I had that thing hammer back, safety on.

While the trigger may not be quite as good as a tuned 1911, an M&P with a trigger job can come close, but with passive safetys that are disengaged automatically when the trigger is pulled. I would not consider them to be a true DAO, they operate more like a single action where the sear has a long engagement surface, and is angled to push aggainst the striker spring when the trigger is pulled.

http://www.burwellgunsmithing.com/Services.htm

Becoming proficient with a true DAO trigger takes a lot of practice, but in a pistol or revolver designed to be DAO, the trigger is normally a lot better than the DA mode of a DA/SA. I would place a smooth pull, and crisp break over actual pull weight in the sceme of things. It took me about 3 months and a couple thousand rounds to shoot my 686 as well in DAO as I could in SA, but now, I can control it much better rapis firing, and the skill translates well to other models with a heavy or long trigger. My CZ-52 has also helped to teach me to become proficient with a heavier (9lb) trigger, after a few months I can actually shoot most revolvers better in DA mode than in SA where there was any time limits imposed, the only time I cock the hammer first is for a rested shot over 25 yards, and then it does shrink the group size somewhat, but both methods are well under Minute of torso out to 50+ yards. In some cases, as with my brother's Walther p99, I can actually get a better group by decoking the pistol and firing in DA mode. The additional weight smooths the trigger pull out, and makes the break crisper, the breaking point is also not as far back as SA mode. In that particular case, the crappy but light SA pull is harder to shoot than the very good DA pull.

DorGunR · Aug 15, 2008

xd40c said:
For me it depends on what I'm doing. I like the SA/DA for acuracy, but they're not for me when carrying. I have 3 DAO weapons and appreciate the decreased size and lack of a hammer to hang up on a shirt or jacket. But I have to tell you, I do not like the weight or pull of the triggers. I understand we they do it that way, but I just would appreciate a lighter trigger.

Have you tried the Para Ord LDA? It's DAO only but it has the sweetest trigger that I've ever seen on a DAO..........I love mine and its in .45 ACP.

NateTheShake · Aug 15, 2008

DorGunR said:
Have you tried the Para Ord LDA? It's DAO only but it has the sweetest trigger that I've ever seen on a DAO..........I love mine and its in .45 ACP.

Haven't had the chance to try the Para LDA, but I have heard good things.

Personally the issue breaks down to me like this:

1. SA - range toy/target shooter. While I love the 1911, I would want to carry one cocked and locked. I second the "nitroglycerin" comment before, once that round is chambered it doesn't take much trigger pull to make one go BANG. Also I don't like having to chamber a round and THEN switch on the safety. The SA trigger is fantastic for target shooting, but it's just too much of a liability in a defensive situation IMHO.

2. SA/DA, DAO, etc - Defensive shooters. The fact that the first or all trigger pulls must be deliberate takes out a little bit of chance for an ND. The operator must make a full trigger pull in order to fire the weapon. The SA/DA does offer the ability to lighten the initial pull, but it can be stored with one in the tube and the hammer down and still put into action quickly.

Overall I prefer a DAO or striker fired for a defensive pistol. Especially one without an external safety like a revolver or Glock. The weapon is essentially carried "Condition Zero", but the operator must intend to pull the trigger in order to fire. It also takes away the possibility of the operator fumbling with safeties when/if the time comes to fire.

mikec · Aug 16, 2008

I have to take my GP100 back to the range. I was getting good at shooting it DAO, then I took a while off from shooting. Life, don't you just hate it when it gets in the way of fun.

The trigger on the XD is OK, not as good as a 1911, but not terrible. I may have to rent a S&W M&P and try their trigger out.

Huckleberry · Aug 16, 2008

Thanks for the great comments and opinions.

I fall in the DA/SA when I'm carrying a pistol (P90, M4506,M92) but I due appreciate a striker fired like the Glock (G22 w/3.5 Sport Trigger) that seems give a good balance between SA and DA. I can't stand a Glock with the "NY trigger" but it does make sense for somebody who was switching over from a S&W M10 M&P or other similiar revolver.

As with others, I leave my 1911s and BHP for fun and matches on the range or HD. Not a fan of C&L carry but I could get used to it if my only other option was being unarmed.

Again, thanks for the coffee talk.

Jim Keenan · Aug 23, 2008

I will preach an old sermon on the subject of different pistols for carry. If you carry for serious purposes, I recommend you carry one and only one pistol or at least one and only one pistol type.

IMHO, carrying different pistols at different times can get you killed. It is kind of pointless to die on Wednesday frantically pulling the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you thought it was Tuesday, your Glock day.

Jim

Huckleberry · Aug 23, 2008

Jim Keenan said:
I will preach an old sermon on the subject of different pistols for carry. If you carry for serious purposes, I recommend you carry one and only one pistol or at least one and only one pistol type.

IMHO, carrying different pistols at different times can get you killed. It is kind of pointless to die on Wednesday frantically pulling the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you thought it was Tuesday, your Glock day.

Jim

I don't think anybody in their right mind would advocate carrying the "pistol du jour".

This is just a conversation of the different firing mechanisms and the shooter's peference for that system. Just discussing tools of the trade mot their employment.

RobMoore · Aug 23, 2008

I have to disagree Jim. If you train enough with a 1911, a Glock or other stikered gun, and a DA/SA gun like a SIG, it doesn't matter which gun it is when you draw it, you use it how its supposed to be used. Its got sights and a trigger, line em up and pull.
Because flicking the safety off on the draw is so natural an act for the trained user, your 1911 scenario shouldn't happen, unless you're a duffer who carries recreationally.

trbon8r · Aug 23, 2008

I don't get the fear of carrying a 1911 cocked and locked. It is no different than carrying a Glock that is cocked with a round in the chamber. The only difference is the 1911 has an exposed hammer versus the Glock that has a striker mechanism that while concealed is effectively "cocked an locked." Either way you are talking about a firing mechanism that is under spring tension while the gun is being carried.

1911s have at least two, and sometimes three safety mechanisms, while a Glock only has one. How much more safe can you get than a 1911?

alucard0822 · Aug 23, 2008

Jim Keenan said:
I will preach an old sermon on the subject of different pistols for carry. If you carry for serious purposes, I recommend you carry one and only one pistol or at least one and only one pistol type.

IMHO, carrying different pistols at different times can get you killed. It is kind of pointless to die on Wednesday frantically pulling the trigger on a cocked and locked 1911 because you thought it was Tuesday, your Glock day.

Jim

I agree to a point, I carry one or a pair out of four handguns depending on weather conditions, 3 are strictly DAO (M&P9c, LCP, S&W j-frame), and operate similarly, the fourth is a bersa 380 DA/SA that I pocket carry mostly when I am out on my motorcycle, it is thin, light, and I am more comfortable with it not firing accidentally if I were to lay the bike down. Thing is, that adding a defensive arm to the arsenal is an expensive and time consuming thing. Any pistol I intend to carry has had at least 500 rounds through it with 100% reliability, and has at least 100 more rounds through it every couple weeks, if any problems show up, it is taken out of service until repaired, and can go through at least a couple hundred rounds without any problems. I practice with all of them dry before I leave the bedroom, and carry them in mostly different ways, so I am confident there will not be a mixup if I were to need it. I think it is more a question of how much practice is required if you carry a couple different weapons, it can be done, and done well, but IMO requires MORE practice for EACH firearm, than if you were to carry a single firearm in a single rig.

3rdRcn · Aug 23, 2008

trbon8r said:
1911s have at least two, and sometimes three safety mechanisms, while a Glock only has one. How much more safe can you get than a 1911?

The Glock has three also....at least thats what glock says. :rolleyes:

RobMoore · Aug 23, 2008

Trigger safety (the little section in the middle), the firing pin safety (the plunger that is pressed upwards as you pull the trigger), and the drop safety (a notch the trigger bar would hit if dropped without trigger pull)

alucard0822 · Aug 24, 2008

If safetys are a concern, the XD can be had with just about all of the glock style passive safetys, along with the 1911 style passive grip safety, and thumb safety, for a total of 5 or so.

Of course the best and most important safety is this (points at head)

Coffee Talk: Pistol Operations

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