When is Vertical grip, not a vertical grip ?

Boss94 · Jan 31, 2018

Had a very interesting conversation with a coworker today about vertical grips on pistols. The conversation included talk about verious forward grips. Magpul sells a angled grip for pistol application's. The Thompson pistol has what appears to be a 45 degree angle , and is sold in the pistol with no NFA regulations being broken. So that makes me ask the question when is a forward grip, not a vertical grip? Is it 89 degrees? 60 degrees? 45 degrees? Would love to hear thought's and if anyone knows for sure what ATF's answer or regulation is for facts??
Thanks all in advance! !!

Merlin593 · Feb 6, 2018

Boss94 said:
Had a very interesting conversation with a coworker today about vertical grips on pistols. The conversation included talk about verious forward grips. Magpul sells a angled grip for pistol application's. The Thompson pistol has what appears to be a 45 degree angle , and is sold in the pistol with no NFA regulations being broken. So that makes me ask the question when is a forward grip, not a vertical grip? Is it 89 degrees? 60 degrees? 45 degrees? Would love to hear thought's and if anyone knows for sure what ATF's answer or regulation is for facts??
Thanks all in advance! !!

In previous communications with the ATF, a vertical grip has been defined as: "For your information, Federal law currently does not define "vertical foregrip." However the ATF has determined that a grip of this type is distinguished by being both forward of the magazine well and oriented at a perpendicular (90 degree) angle to the bore of the weapon. The relative position of the grip around the weapon's bore would not change this determination."

Since they have defined the angle as 90 degrees, I'd say 89 degrees or less is fine. Even without the 90 degree statement, the definition of perpendicular is "at an angle of 90° to a given line, plane, or surface".

When was the last time you read a story about anyone getting arrested for a vertical grip on a pistol. This kind of fits the same scenario as braces that are being shouldered. That went on for years - even guys posting videos of doing it and nothing happened. ATF has better things to worry about than Joe Bob with a vertical foregrip or brace on his pistol (until he commits a crime with it :rolleyes:

)

Boss94 · Feb 7, 2018

Thanks for your response. I did a few internet searches and found various things but nothing that said 90 or perpendicular. I haven't put a lot of time in my search yet . But will dig in a bit more next week. Thanks again! !

Merlin593 · Feb 7, 2018

Boss94 said:
Thanks for your response. I did a few internet searches and found various things but nothing that said 90 or perpendicular. I haven't put a lot of time in my search yet . But will dig in a bit more next week. Thanks again! !

Here is a copy of the letter from the ATF. I have never seen/heard of another opinion letter that states differently in regards to the definition of a vertical foregrip. Some guys have some goofy idea that if you can wrap your hand around the foregrip, its considered vertical. :sad20:

When challenged, no one can provide any written communication from the ATF stating such nonsense.

I think that a lot of manufacturers of foregrips don't want to go to the trouble of asking the ATF for an opinion letter before marketing/selling foregrips as vertical vs. angled. They just slap a "vertical" tag into the name and make the consumer guess as to what is or isn't vertical in the eyes of the ATF.

Boss94 · Feb 7, 2018

Thank you! !!!

Merlin593 · Feb 7, 2018

I am truly amazed by the lack of responses to your initial inquiry :confused:

Merlin593 · Feb 8, 2018

here is an example of what I'm talking about. Bravo Company advertises this grip as vertical (I have two by the way). https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUN-FIGHTER-s-Vertical-Grip-SHORT-Black-p/bcm-vg-s-blk.htm

Yet in the description they describe:
The forward angle increases the rigidity of the forearm, while providing a more natural wrist angle.
Can be mounted in reverse angle to increase control when grabbing handguard and grip.

Ummm if it has an angle to it (other than 90) and can be mounted in different positions allowing 2 types of grip, its not vertical! A truly vertical (90 degree) grip can only mount one way and only allow one grip!
If you look at the picture of it and imagine it secured to the rail, draw a straight line through it; it has a definite angle.

:banghead:

Boss94 · Feb 8, 2018

That's odd they call it vertical as you are correct about the angle ???

Merlin593 · Feb 9, 2018

Boss94 said:
That's odd they call it vertical as you are correct about the angle ???

Its too bad the ATF can't make general determinations/definition statements such as in the above letter that can be applied across the board to all products that fit the description.
Right now they have to deal with one set of circumstances or product at a time when in reality their "opinion" could be applied to many.
Look at the pistol brace debacle. Once SB Tactical received their specific letter about it being ok to shoulder their brace, all of the other brace manufacturers have said that its now ok to shoulder theirs too. Yet I haven't seen any written letters from the ATF stating that for the other companies. There are references to phone calls with ATF (yeah like I'd take that to the bank :sad20:

).
Anyway I digress - the definition of a vertical grip being so specific could be applied to all products in the industry if only the ATF would publish some public opinion letter rather than one for each product/situational inquiry.
I hope this makes some sense.

DevinRPD · Feb 9, 2018

why doesn't franklin armory push the boundaries some more and test how vertical they can make an angled foregrip and still be legal w/ the ATF

GUNSnROTORS · Feb 9, 2018

Merlin593 said:
I am truly amazed by the lack of responses to your initial inquiry

I'm interested in this topic, but haven't posted here yet because I don't have a definitive answer to Boss's question. Based on my review of the ATF letters posted above, neither does the ATF. It seems they rely mostly on product names, just like MD does, in reference to "HBARs".

Boss94 said:
Had a very interesting conversation with a coworker today about vertical grips on pistols. The conversation included talk about verious forward grips. Magpul sells a angled grip for pistol application's. The Thompson pistol has what appears to be a 45 degree angle , and is sold in the pistol with no NFA regulations being broken. So that makes me ask the question when is a forward grip, not a vertical grip? Is it 89 degrees? 60 degrees? 45 degrees? Would love to hear thought's and if anyone knows for sure what ATF's answer or regulation is for facts??
Thanks all in advance! !!

I have AFGs and AFG-2s mounted (marketed as "angled fore-grips") and like them very much, particularly the AFG-2. Most (if not all) of the fore-grips I can find marketed as "angled" appear to be in the neighborhood of 45 degrees or less. That's comfortably "not" vertical (in relation with a horizontal bore) and right in the middle of my comfort zone. Plus, I don't ever want to feel the need to pack a plum bob around with me unless I'm out building a barn ...

Merlin593 · Feb 9, 2018

DevinRPD said:
why doesn't franklin armory push the boundaries some more and test how vertical they can make an angled foregrip and still be legal w/ the ATF

Franklin Armory has bigger fish to fry trying to get the Reformation to shoot less than 4 MOA at 50 yds using their nerf football shaped ammo :lol2:

But seriously - you can't make something more or less vertical. Its either vertical or it isn't. If something isn't 90 degrees (right angle) to a plane or surface, then it has to be angled, canted, sloped etc. But not vertical.

Merlin593 · Feb 9, 2018

GUNSnROTORS said:
I'm interested in this topic, but haven't posted here yet because I don't have a definitive answer to Boss's question. Based on my review of the ATF letters posted above, neither does the ATF. It seems they rely mostly on product names, just like MD does, in reference to "HBARs".

I have AFGs and AFG-2s mounted (marketed as "angled fore-grips") and like them very much, particularly the AFG-2. Most (if not all) of the fore-grips I can find marketed as "angled" appear to be in the neighborhood of 45 degrees or less. That's comfortably "not" vertical (in relation with a horizontal bore) and right in the middle of my comfort zone. Plus, I don't ever want to feel the need to pack a plum bob around with me unless I'm out building a barn ...

This might make a for a good poll - would you put "X" grip on your AR pistol? I think I might try something over in the rifle section just for fun.

pilot25 · Jul 12, 2018

Merlin593 said:
This might make a for a good poll - would you put "X" grip on your AR pistol? I think I might try something over in the rifle section just for fun.

I don't know how to do a poll on here but how many people put an AFG or the like on their AR pistol?

My next purchase, or build if I can make one of Chad's classes, is going to be an AR pistol. There seems to be murky water concerning the AFG and using the pistol against your shoulder like a rifle.

Also, how many have thought of going the AR pistol route and then just said screw it and filed NFA paperwork instead?

Boss94 · Jul 12, 2018

I have several pistols with the AFG 2 grip on the front. Looking at what it would take to graft a Thompson 45 degree angle grip on a longer pistol I have.

outrider58 · Jul 12, 2018

Merlin593 said:
here is an example of what I'm talking about. Bravo Company advertises this grip as vertical (I have two by the way). https://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-GUN-FIGHTER-s-Vertical-Grip-SHORT-Black-p/bcm-vg-s-blk.htm

Yet in the description they describe:
The forward angle increases the rigidity of the forearm, while providing a more natural wrist angle.
Can be mounted in reverse angle to increase control when grabbing handguard and grip.

Ummm if it has an angle to it (other than 90) and can be mounted in different positions allowing 2 types of grip, its not vertical! A truly vertical (90 degree) grip can only mount one way and only allow one grip!
If you look at the picture of it and imagine it secured to the rail, draw a straight line through it; it has a definite angle.

I'll jump in here. I have two of those BCMs as well. They are(IMHO) VFGs. I don't take chances.

It is pretty much common belief that 45° or more acute is an angled foregrip. I've never seen that described in writing. More of a CYA kind of thing.

As for the BCMs. I actually slant them forward and use them as a hand back stop. Quite comfortable that way.

Another common question, at what length does a hand stop become a VFG?

Ranchero50 · Jul 12, 2018

I have a spare DD vertical grip that I thought about heating up and changing the angle some so it's more comfortable to use.

IMBLITZVT · Jul 13, 2018

Merlin593 said:
I am truly amazed by the lack of responses to your initial inquiry

The OP posted in the NFA section about an issue mainly for pistol people. I don't have an issue with this but this is not an NFA question. Its a how to stay a pistol question.

Its a question that does not come up for NFA owners as we can put Vertical grips on MGs, SBRs and AOWs...etc.

So I at least don't know the laws around it as well as I don't have the issue. My M16 lower does not have a Sig Brace.

Like I said, I don't care where he posts it but he might get better response from the pistol forum as they deal with that issue more.

outrider58 · Jul 13, 2018

Merlin593 said:
I am truly amazed by the lack of responses to your initial inquiry

Posting position aside, there have been a few instances lately where people have posted 'shooting' questions/problems and been all but ignored except by one or two of us. Do most people come here for the exchange of info and help, or to play in the WC?

Boss94 · Jul 13, 2018

It was toss up of where to post it. I know the laws of a 90 on a machinegun is no issue ( I own my share of them) but in the same token the NFA community I believe ( I could be wrong) are better versed on current NFA laws then the general public. So I chose the NFA section for those who work more closely with current laws and thoughts. This community is a wealth of knowledge and wanted to share my thoughts on the subject. Was it a bad choice to choose the NFA thread ? Maybe. But the information provided has thus far been very helpful, and has in my opinion been informative about the subject. Hopefully in the future this post will open other productive discussions. In the mean time if you have any new information . What say you?

When is Vertical grip, not a vertical grip ?

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