Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

I just got a Chassepot needle rifle. After cleaning it up , fabricating missing parts, and making a few test paper ammo for it, shooting the old gun the first time was so enjoyable and delightful, I think I must share the experience with everyone here.

I did not expect a lot from this Chassepot, but I was lucky to buy this one from the Gunbroker. All metal parts are matched (barrel, receiver, bolt, cleaning rod). All edges are sharp. All wood markings/cartouches are deep and clear. The whole rifle looks unissued (just cover with rust where the white metal were exposed to air), but for some reasons, the stock carries a different number even though it fit very nicely to the metal parts with no indication for being used elsewhere before.

The bore is excellent for gun over 142 years old. The bolt is very clean and looks like only a few test shots ever fired with it. Unfortunately the tip of the needle is broken, but I am still happy to see it there (it helps me to fabricate the replacements).

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

A few more detail pictures of the stock.

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

Closer look at the bolt.

hodgepodge · Mar 27, 2016

Yeah, that looks nice! I've got to believe that is an excellent example of that rifle!

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

My test ammo. 5 went off, 3 duds (1 with toy cap ignited but fail to go bang, 2 just fail).

todbiker · Mar 27, 2016

Once again I shame the C&R community with my ignorance, thanks for sharing and forcing me to learn a little more. :thumbsup:

lee2 · Mar 27, 2016

nice rifle and very creative! :thumbsup:

knastera · Mar 27, 2016

Very cool. I never heard of a needle gun before. The is a great article on these in Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Needle_gun?wprov=sfsi1). It mentions your gun specifically. An 11 mm bullet makes for quite the impressive round. I'm curious, why is the percussion cap inverted?

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SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

I don't know what the french used in the past, but currently, percussion cap is the only thing that could ignite the cartridge with a needle strike. Inverted cap ...cap powder must be compressed really hard and quickly between 2 metal surfaces to be sparked / ignited. I made my needle's tip with flat head screw driver shape to increase contact surface.

Threeband · Mar 27, 2016

knastera said:
...I'm curious, why is the percussion cap inverted?

...

The Chassepot was developed as an improvement on the Dreyse Needle Gun, and to appreciate the Chassepot you should look at the Dreyse.

Dreyse put the percussion cap on the base of the bullet, facing backwards. The long needle had to penetrate through the powder charge to reach the cap. Why face it backwards? So the needle could reach the priming compound. There's no need to crush the cap, just scratch the priming compound.

Reminds me of when I was a kid setting off toy caps by scratching them with a pin or a needle.

Anyway, the Dreyse needle ended up being inside the powder charge when it ignited, subjecting it to a lot of stress. The Chassepot moves the cap to the rear, which protected the needles, allowing them to last longer. The Chassepot had a better gas seal, too. Looks like Slow Shooter has refurbished his gas seal with some sort of rubber tubing.

Anyway, go look at this thread from last September:

Mystery Rifle: Dreyse Needle Gun?

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=3995279#post3995279

Here's an illustration of the Dreyse ready to fire. Note the long needle is cocked, ready to pierce through the powder charge to reach the cap on the base of the olive-shaped bullet (which is held in a sabot).

The Chassepot is similar, but the needle is much shorter, because the cap is all the way at the rear of the papier-mache cartridge.

Threeband · Mar 27, 2016

Another improvement in the Chassepot: the bolt handle turns 90 degrees from vertical to horizontal and locks positively. The Dreyse bolt sort of wedges closed, with the bolt handle sticking up like a sore thumb somewhere around one or two o'clock. You can see that clearly in the photos in the other thread.
Here is the Dreyse with the bolt "locked". That's it, folks.

Remember, people back then were used to guns having big huge hammers sticking up in a similar location. That bolt handle sticking up didn't seem so odd, I'm sure.

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

From my history book, needle gun was invented in Paris in 1822. That way.....before Dreyse rifle. The french army just waited until further improvement to the technology before buying it. In similar case, Russian stole the Concord design and then released their pirated copy version of the airplane to the world first.

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

Threeband said:
Another improvement in the Chassepot: the bolt handle turns 90 degrees from vertical to horizontal and locks positively. The Dreyse bolt sort of wedges closed, with the bolt handle sticking up like a sore thumb somewhere around one or two o'clock. You can see that clearly in the photos in the other thread.
Here is the Dreyse with the bolt "locked". That's it, folks.

Remember, people back then were used to guns having big huge hammers sticking up in a similar location. That bolt handle sticking up didn't seem so odd, I'm sure.

Actually it is easier to operate the bolt in that positon. It just looks odd to us now a days.
Is it your gun?

Threeband · Mar 27, 2016

SlowShooter said:
Actually it is easier to operate the bolt in that positon. It just looks odd to us now a days.
Is it your gun?

No, it's Milsurp Dan's. Do you have a Dreyse? Sounds like you're familiar with it.

Here is his thread:
http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?p=3995279#post3995279

I'm about to post 8 scanned pages on the Chassepot from the same out-of-print book.

By the way, the Dreyse was originally a muzzleloader, which used needle-ignition. That information may be in scans in the other thread, if not, I'll post it.

Anyway, I'm sure the French invented the Needle Gun in the 1820s just like the Russians invented the Concord in the 1920s.

MilsurpDan · Mar 27, 2016

SlowShooter said:
Actually it is easier to operate the bolt in that positon. It just looks odd to us now a days.
Is it your gun?

The Dreyse mentioned is mine. Enjoyable write up Threeband, and thanks for using my rifle as your example

.

Coincidently, I was just downstairs looking at and admiring it for the 6,000th time since I got it last August. Still haven't gotten the nerve to shoot it yet, or make the ammo. I think it's perfectly safe, I just don't want to damage such a rare rifle.

Slowshooter, very nice Chassepot. Hopefully I'll find one just as nice in the near future.

Threeband · Mar 27, 2016

Le Fusil Chassepot

Sharp · Mar 27, 2016

Very curious to hear more about your ammunition formulas and how they perform. I think the needle rifles are really interesting step in small arms history, but it seemed impractical to remanufacture the odd paper cartridges they were designed to use.

Threeband · Mar 27, 2016

And here is the story of the development of the Needle Gun in the 1820s... by the German, Dreyse.

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

MilsurpDan said:
The Dreyse mentioned is mine. Enjoyable write up Threeband, and thanks for using my rifle as your example .

Coincidently, I was just downstairs looking at and admiring it for the 6,000th time since I got it last August. Still haven't gotten the nerve to shoot it yet, or make the ammo. I think it's perfectly safe, I just don't want to damage such a rare rifle.

Slowshooter, very nice Chassepot. Hopefully I'll find one just as nice in the near future.

I love your Dreyse. I will get one in the near future when I have the $. One more gun for my bucket lis.t

SlowShooter · Mar 27, 2016

The following is what i just copy from wiki:

Pauly needle gun[edit]

The first experimental needle gun was designed by Jean Samuel Pauly, a Swiss gunsmith.
In Paris in 1808, in association with French gunsmith François Prélat, Pauly created the first fully self-contained cartridges:[1] the cartridges incorporated a copper base with integrated mercury fulminate primer powder (the major innovation of Pauly), a round bullet and either brass or paper casing.[2][3] The cartridge was loaded through the breech and fired with a needle. The needle-activated central-fire breech-loading gun became a major feature of firearms thereafter.[4] The corresponding firearm was also developed by Pauly.[1] Pauly made an improved version which was protected by a patent on 29 September 1812.[1] The cartridge was further improved by the French gunsmith Casimir Lefaucheux in 1836.
In 1809 Pauly employed the German Johann Nicolaus von Dreyse, who later invented the famous Dreyse rifle.

This may not be true! Wiki is full of s...

Chassepot needle rifle: Better than s...shooting

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