9mm effectiveness per fbi

Biggfoot44 said:

The pictured document was an Executive Summary .


The biggest advantage from an organizational standpoint is the better control .

By no means bashing , but the reality is most ofc aren't into guns or shooting as an avocation , and most agencies are interested in maintaining the appearance of meeting prevailing professional standards, not having a a rank & file of expert shootists .

If periodic requalifications can be accomplished minimal direct expenses, and manpower costs for instructors, instructees for remedial training , that would be a great administrative boon .

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And from a liability perspective, a PD can’t put an unqualified officer on the st. Can you imagine the consequences of an qualified LEO shooting a bystander? 9 will be easier to qualify with. But if amazing technological improvements have benefited the 9, wouldn’t the same tech improvements be applied to a 45,for example, advancing the effectivnessof the 45?

There's benefits on both side. I personally like .45acp a lot. My go to defensive handgun at home is 9mm however. 20+1 capacity is nice.

While I agree with the assertion in the report that basically a 9mm will kill you just as dead, given the better designed “high-end” LEO rounds or whatever, I question how anyone can discount the fact that they also make those same projectiles in the larger, more potent calibers too. So....wouldn’t simple high school physics mean that the larger, more potent calibers be in effect, better?

I’m nowhere near disagreeing or doubting the efficacy of the 9mm, and that the distribution of a weapons class over an entire agency made up of a myriad of different shooting skill levels and physical body types, is best suited to the 9mm.

The quote I found interesting is that “handgun stopping power is a myth”. I don’t have a scintilla of experience in the LEO/MIL communtity, especially as it comes to terminal ballistics and wounds to humans. But I have shot in the neighborhood of 100-150 deer over the years, and smaller rounds don’t typically plant the animal where the larger rounds generally do. That seems significant to me.

I also harken back to the 90’s when I used to shoot bowling pin shoots. Everyone used .45ACP, with a small few shooting .40’s and 9mm. The 9’s were ridiculously under powered for pin shoots. You had to completely knock the pin off the table (pin placed on front side of the table), and the 9’s barely laid the pins over onto the table, much less knock them back 2 ft or so. That’s zero “knockdown power”. But that’s only the FORCE part of the equation, the bullet penetration into clothing, skin, muscle, bone, etc... is another story and I’m sure there’s no real issue with the round as a man-killer in general, I just wouldn’t classify it as a “man-stopper”. In fact, back then I swore off 9mm’s for that reason, but today I own nearly a dozen of them.

Still, all things being equal I still think the takeaway from the FBI report should be “with the right load the 9mm is good enough and all things considered it’s overall best for our agency”, not “see, we told you the 9mm is the best round”.

I dont want to be shot with any of them......

AlBeight said:

While I agree with the assertion in the report that basically a 9mm will kill you just as dead, given the better designed “high-end” LEO rounds or whatever, I question how anyone can discount the fact that they also make those same projectiles in the larger, more potent calibers too. So....wouldn’t simple high school physics mean that the larger, more potent calibers be in effect, better?

I’m nowhere near disagreeing or doubting the efficacy of the 9mm, and that the distribution of a weapons class over an entire agency made up of a myriad of different shooting skill levels and physical body types, is best suited to the 9mm.

The quote I found interesting is that “handgun stopping power is a myth”. I don’t have a scintilla of experience in the LEO/MIL communtity, especially as it comes to terminal ballistics and wounds to humans. But I have shot in the neighborhood of 100-150 deer over the years, and smaller rounds don’t typically plant the animal where the larger rounds generally do. That seems significant to me.

I also harken back to the 90’s when I used to shoot bowling pin shoots. Everyone used .45ACP, with a small few shooting .40’s and 9mm. The 9’s were ridiculously under powered for pin shoots. You had to completely knock the pin off the table (pin placed on front side of the table), and the 9’s barely laid the pins over onto the table, much less knock them back 2 ft or so. That’s zero “knockdown power”. But that’s only the FORCE part of the equation, the bullet penetration into clothing, skin, muscle, bone, etc... is another story and I’m sure there’s no real issue with the round as a man-killer in general, I just wouldn’t classify it as a “man-stopper”. In fact, back then I swore off 9mm’s for that reason, but today I own nearly a dozen of them.

Still, all things being equal I still think the takeaway from the FBI report should be “with the right load the 9mm is good enough and all things considered it’s overall best for our agency”, not “see, we told you the 9mm is the best round”.

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How many of those deer have you shot with pistols? Because for a pistol, no there isn’t stopping power. With a rifle, you do have hydrostatic shock.

Yeah a bigger bullet is going to create a bigger wound channel, but it isn’t going to have any extra shock compared to a smaller bullet. Neither really will. The difference between a .48” wound track from an expanded 9mm isn’t really THAT much smaller than a .62” expanded .45. Smaller is smaller, I’ll give you that. But a .223 might have shock damage 1.5-2” in diameter along the path of the bullet. A .308 might be 4”. That’s a big fuzzy difference.

If you can carry 40% more bullets and put them on traget 50% faster...that probably matters more than a somewhat larger wound track.

Besides, 10mm auto or it didn’t happen.

One thing I've seen with top loads, is that they do a good job of converting energy and momentum into expansion and penetration, not a huge amount of difference between calibers in gel tests given 9, 40, and 45 all come in around 400FPE. There is a big difference with a couple hundred FPE less or more, especially in penetration, but I can definitely understand how a significant increase in capacity, and speed in follow-up shots outweighs a small difference in momentum/deflection because of weight differences between service calibers.

We really need more of this, again?

alucard0822 said:

One thing I've seen with top loads, is that they do a good job of converting energy and momentum into expansion and penetration, not a huge amount of difference between calibers in gel tests given 9, 40, and 45 all come in around 400FPE. There is a big difference with a couple hundred FPE less or more, especially in penetration, but I can definitely understand how a significant increase in capacity, and speed in follow-up shots outweighs a small difference in momentum/deflection because of weight differences between service calibers.

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I believe this is the crux of the FBI's actual white paper. When they studied the statistics they had available, 9mm had the best record of the big three for successful follow up shots, and multiple wound tracks to the vitals were generally the best predictor of a successful stop regardless of cartridge used. The statistics for hit/miss ratio for LEOs are typically not favorable, so it makes sense to use an adequate cartridge with light recoil from a pistol with the highest capacity that is reasonable.

Hitting stationary targets is one thing, but that's not really the situation most LEOs deal with when they have to use lethal force. Typically they are moving, and they have to hit a relatively small target that is also moving. And the target is probably trying to kill them or someone else, so that is pretty stressful. And the LEO has to simultaneously consider innocent bystanders. Nevermind the fact that some police forces mandate a really heavy trigger pull like the NYPD. Suddenly 70-90% miss rates become a lot easier to understand, when viewed from that perspective vs what most of us do when we are at the range, or even when we compete.

When I want an unbiased factual report, I think FBI.

Docster said:

We really need more of this, again?

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I don't care what caliber any agency carries, I only care if the agents can actually hit what they are supposed to be shooting.

Same can be said for any lawful carrier.

lazarus said:

How many of those deer have you shot with pistols? Because for a pistol, no there isn’t stopping power. With a rifle, you do have hydrostatic shock.

Yeah a bigger bullet is going to create a bigger wound channel, but it isn’t going to have any extra shock compared to a smaller bullet. Neither really will. The difference between a .48” wound track from an expanded 9mm isn’t really THAT much smaller than a .62” expanded .45. Smaller is smaller, I’ll give you that. But a .223 might have shock damage 1.5-2” in diameter along the path of the bullet. A .308 might be 4”. That’s a big fuzzy difference.

If you can carry 40% more bullets and put them on traget 50% faster...that probably matters more than a somewhat larger wound track.

Besides, 10mm auto or it didn’t happen.

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Good explanation. Makes sense to me. Thx

Looks like the biggest issue is the 70-80% target miss rate. Until they improve that, they need more bullets. Therefore 9mm. And more range ting time.

Try training with a mesh laudry bag over your eyes, looking into the sun wearing gardening gloves. Throw in shooting while rocking back and forth on a teeter tooter ( conditions designed to make shooting more stressful or difficult) and i think a weapon that helps put 5-6 follow up shots on rarget is helpful.

Zorros said:

Try training with a mesh laudry bag over your eyes, looking into the sun wearing gardening gloves. Throw in shooting while rocking back and forth on a teeter tooter ( conditions designed to make shooting more stressful or difficult) and i think a weapon that helps put 5-6 follow up shots on rarget is helpful.

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Exactly. That’s why even looking at something like a bear gun, I question the really huge handgun calibers. Sure, if you want to hunt a bear with a handgun, biggest that won’t break your wrist and go.

But if I am in the brush and one comes out at me from 10yds even, yes I might have just one shot...but probably even odds that one shot isn’t going to hit. With something more “manageable”, I might make a follow-up shot. Even if it means the bear is going at me already.

Or better case I see it coming 20yds away, I can probably get two shots from a .44 mag off, maybe 3 or 10mm. I really don’t think I could get more than one of .454.

A person coming at me in my house in the dark...I can sure get more off of 9mm than .40 or 10mm or .45acp. And if I run dry, I probably don’t have a reload, or if I do it is a few crucial seconds of possibly fumbling in the dark to reload. And low flash propellant or not, those bigger cartridges are going to be louder and have more flash than an equivalent barrel length 9.

These are my considerations and why I don’t think I’d go bigger than 9mm for self defense.

Now if I was in a LE capacity and had the time and ability to train a lot, a G20 might be a good to for me...but there is also be looking at barrier penetration as a key interest and 10mm is going to do that way better than any of the other commonly considered rounds. And 15+1 isn’t much less than 17+1.

lazarus said:

A person coming at me in my house in the dark...I can sure get more off of 9mm than .40 or 10mm or .45acp. And if I run dry, I probably don’t have a reload, or if I do it is a few crucial seconds of possibly fumbling in the dark to reload. And low flash propellant or not, those bigger cartridges are going to be louder and have more flash than an equivalent barrel length 9.

These are my considerations and why I don’t think I’d go bigger than 9mm for self defense.

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If an intruder came at me in the dark in my home, it'd be a 5.56. And I'd have 30 rounds.

Alan3413 said:

If an intruder came at me in the dark in my home, it'd be a 5.56. And I'd have 30 rounds.

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Maybe OK for your home.

Apartment, condo, town-home, vicinity of neighbors....

FrankOceanXray said:

Maybe OK for your home.

Apartment, condo, town-home, vicinity of neighbors....

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5.56 is actually a good choice for all of the above.

AlBeight said:

While I agree with the assertion in the report that basically a 9mm will kill you just as dead, given the better designed “high-end” LEO rounds or whatever, I question how anyone can discount the fact that they also make those same projectiles in the larger, more potent calibers too. So....wouldn’t simple high school physics mean that the larger, more potent calibers be in effect, better?

I’m nowhere near disagreeing or doubting the efficacy of the 9mm, and that the distribution of a weapons class over an entire agency made up of a myriad of different shooting skill levels and physical body types, is best suited to the 9mm.

The quote I found interesting is that “handgun stopping power is a myth”. I don’t have a scintilla of experience in the LEO/MIL communtity, especially as it comes to terminal ballistics and wounds to humans. But I have shot in the neighborhood of 100-150 deer over the years, and smaller rounds don’t typically plant the animal where the larger rounds generally do. That seems significant to me.

I also harken back to the 90’s when I used to shoot bowling pin shoots. Everyone used .45ACP, with a small few shooting .40’s and 9mm. The 9’s were ridiculously under powered for pin shoots. You had to completely knock the pin off the table (pin placed on front side of the table), and the 9’s barely laid the pins over onto the table, much less knock them back 2 ft or so. That’s zero “knockdown power”. But that’s only the FORCE part of the equation, the bullet penetration into clothing, skin, muscle, bone, etc... is another story and I’m sure there’s no real issue with the round as a man-killer in general, I just wouldn’t classify it as a “man-stopper”. In fact, back then I swore off 9mm’s for that reason, but today I own nearly a dozen of them.

Still, all things being equal I still think the takeaway from the FBI report should be “with the right load the 9mm is good enough and all things considered it’s overall best for our agency”, not “see, we told you the 9mm is the best round”.

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The issue is not really is it better, it is about how much better. What you are going to find is that larger projectiles may be better, but they are not appreciably better. The report states that there was little to no differences in wound tracks.

Handgun rounds are not all that effective at killing people. There are ~11,000 firearm murders vs about 67,000 injuries or about 6 times more likely to live than be killed with a firearm. All most all are caused by handguns.

How much damage is caused is only one factor. The biggest factor is shot placement. Misses don't cause any damage. The report indicates that people shooting 9mm tend to shoot faster and more accurately that 40SW.

IF you look at empirical evidence there is not as much difference in handgun round effectiveness. See https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

I don't have enough information to know what you mean by "smaller rounds don’t typically plant the animal where the larger rounds generally do" While size is definitely a factor, there are also a number of other factors that may make smaller rounds more effective than larger ones. It really comes down to specifics.

We are not living in the 90's. Projectile design has come a long way. Hollow point rounds now reliably expand even through clothing creating a larger effective round. That could not be said in the 90's.

Knocking over bowling pins is an exercise in momentum transfer and accuracy. The recoil you experience is roughly analogous to the amount of momentum a projectile has. Several shooting competition use a power factor, which is another way to measure the momentum of a bullet. I don't believe standard 9mm would be considered a major power factor. It would be disadvantageous to have lower power factors in bowling pin competition. This is why most had the large rounds (higher momentum). In an accuracy competition such as IPSC they disadvantage the lower recoiling 9mm (give it minor/lower scoring) because of the speed and accuracy advantages it gives over the larger calibers. This is one of the reasons why the FBI has selected it.

When I was a cop, for most of my years I was issued a .38 Special...and I never felt underarmed with it. My attitude was that if I couldn't handle a problem with eighteen rounds (six +two speed loaders), I: 1) couldn't hit what I was aiming at; 2) shooting at someone behind hard over and shouldn't have been shooting in that event; and 3) was in shyte so deep no handgun was going to get me out of it.

I've always been a .45 guy and still am for use in serious social situations. While I believe in most cases, a solid hit with a .38 Special or larger should put a stop to an attacker, that a larger and heavier round should hurt more with a peripheral hit. Under stress you can't always be precise in shot placement but you do want to get hits.

While I've been fortunate to not ever need to use deadly force in my law enforcement career or private life...I can't say my preferences are real-world valid. But to my mind they are valid. I have trained with and discussed this with guys with real world experience...and I take their experiences and recommendations with more than a grain of salt.

I favor and prefer a 45 ACP over a 40 and a 9...and actually prefer the 40 over a 9. Much of the choice is based on things other than empirical data and kinetic energy levels. I won’t go into those other factors since they are not easily measured but I will state I wouldn't feel under armed with a nine. I have specifically been looking at a smaller 9mm pistol but only because of its size and application. I can also get that in a slightly larger format chambered in 45 ACP and give up only one round. Many state five shot revolvers are adequate but scoff at a semi auto with “only” 7 or 8 round mags.... (scratching head) hmmmm...