Hot 9mm Handloads for Carbine use?

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    Hi-
    I just built a 9mm AR Carbine with a 16" barrel. Have some NATO Factory loads for it and some +P factory loads as well. I dont own any 9mm handguns. Looking at handloading for it, which im fairly new to. So, right now mainly focused on handloading 9mm ammo optimized for a carbine with a 16" barrel. Looking to either reload 115 grain or 124 grain RN FMJ Ball. Im running a pretty heavy buffer and spring. Got a ramped bolt and anti-rotational pins as well.

    Has anybody used a slower burning rifle powder in the 9mm for carbine use to fully utilize a 16" barrel? Can 9mm be loaded up to .38 Super power or is that too much pressure?

    Again mainly focused on loading the 9mm for a 16" carbine not for a handgun. Is there any load data out there that approximates the military loads for the UZI or MP5 (SMG load)?
     

    Mike3888

    Mike3888
    Feb 21, 2013
    1,125
    Dundalk, Md-Mifflin,Pa
    Rifle and pistol powders are totally different. Take a look at a burn rate chart. I started handloading way back before there was internet. I would not trust anybody’s load data on any open forum. Invest in some handloading books and read.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Besides enough checks to make sure you don't get squibs, much of it comes down to what you want the load to do vs the range of loads you tuned for. For my competition PCC, I use a light load if CFE pistol under a 124gr plated for about 1100fps from a 16", clean and soft shootin, reliable and soft recoiling with a standard M4 buffer spring and 5.5oz buffer. My defensive 7" pistol build has a 7oz buffer and 308 spring with QC10 barrel to be reliable with HP ammo, cycles my comp loads, but still reliable with defensive 124-147 and subsonics with a suppressor. Not sure there is value in a hot load, but would probably go with a 147gr XTP over power pistol if I wanted the most power, then see how it functions with a heavy buffer/spring
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    Very oversimplified , but look to the relatively slower powders listed under the PISTOL data . Then confirm reliability in your rifle .

    And you will need a chrono, if certain velocity ranges are a criteria .

    Statement #1 - There are significant differences between different loads of similar bullet weight , even if they are similar from typical " pistol lengths .

    Statement #2 - It is up to you to decide if #1 is meaningful to You .

    Statement # 3 - IF #2 is yes , you need to consider how the specific Bullet performs at an increased velocity .
     

    Trigger Time

    Amazed
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 23, 2013
    1,231
    Even with factory rounds you will notice increased viscosity from a carbine compared to a pistol.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    First, welcome to the fun that is shooting a submachine gun or PCC.

    Second, I do not suggest attempting .38 Super performance in the 9mm. There is something that is often referred to as 9 Major but that is best left to purpose built firearms (usually race type handguns) in the Open division (they have locking operating systems, where you are running a blowback based on your reference to ramped bolt). Use of these loads will prematurely fail parts in your weapon and, in many cases, result in brass that is unsafe for further reloading.

    Third, IME the NATO countries tend to run standard 9x19mm NATO loads in their SMGs. The exceptions would be some of the arctic warfare ammo which, to my understanding, was developed for use at extreme cold temperatures in Sterlings. The Israelis are often cited as an example of a country that likes to load up hot 9mm. This partially true. They DO NOT care about reloading their brass and thus worry only about safety and reliability of the firearm. The majority of Israeli ammo that I have shot has been full power (NATO spec) 9x19mm. There was (and probably still is) ammunition, loaded in Israel, that was extremely unsafe for use in just about any handgun and even dangerous in some submachine guns. It was specific to use in the UZI. Some were, supposedly, 115gr. Those that I have actually seen and used were 158gr. The tips were blue for ease of identification and the heavies were moving at or slightly faster than 147 +P from other manufacturers. I have loaded 160gr hardcast sized to .356 up to just short of 1100fps in an UZI but I would not consider doing that in most SMGs, especially those that run closed bolt. Eventually, I realized this was a stupid idea as I had to be very careful not to let that ammo get into other guns or the hands of others. Without going into all the design features of the UZI, I will just say that in an UZI one can fire 9x19 proof loads without breaking it. In the USA, a lot of manufacturers load 9 relatively lightly and designate as +P the loads that meet full pressure NATO/CIP specs. This is a source of some confusion as many CIP manufacturers do not designate their loads +P though they actually are by US SAAMI standards.

    DO NOT fire +P+ rated ammo in your PCC. This stuff is, fortunately for most, uncommon on the market. One I see regularly sold at gun shows (in almost every case with no posted warning) is Hirtenberger L7A1. This stuff breaks guns that it was never intended to be fired in. I have seen broken berettas, brownings, etc. as a result of some dolt trying to "maximize" their 9mm firearm. They are just stupid. Those I retain some sympathy for are the trusting but uninformed souls who bought this hot loaded ammo from someone not knowing what it was.

    If you wish to load outside of published data, that is your privilege. I suggest starting within published book data and then moving up if you so desire. Powders that I have used for longer barrel loads (usually with heavier bullets than you are talking about, though) are Blue Dot, 800X, power pistol.
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    It can be as much as 200 FPS faster out of a 16" PCC barrel. I have 2 uppers. One has a Taccom alloy shrouded barrel that really is only 5.5" long. That is for Steel Challenge and other steel matches where the distance is around 50y and under. I use heavier bullet ammo for knockdown steel verses static steel. My other barreled upper is also equipped with a Taccom barrel but this one has a full 16" liner and alloy shroud. I built it for longer distances and shooting paper. For this I use 115-124g ammo in the 1100 FPS range knowing that it is likely going to be going out the barrel up to 1300 FPS. Also has a MBX comp on it whereas the first one does not have anything on it. I plan on working up a 105-108g load for the first one at around 1000 FPS for Steel Challenge, which with my 3-stage buffer will allow me to remove the weight in the BCG. As for the second one I am almost to the stage of building a second lower for it so as to perfect a buffer setup for higher power factor loads and better accuracy at longer distances.
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    Its possible to break parts in your PCC with simple Fed 115g 1145 FPS ammo so I also don't suggest hot loading it. I bought a batch of NATO full power 9mm awhile ago to shoot in my G34 with the comped barrel (also if I ever get both my double stack guns converted from 9x23 to 9x19). Supposed to be about 161 PF (124g @ 1299 fps). I developed a setup in my G34 to shoot it but decided I did not like it as much as shooting regular ammo in a ported barrel. I tell you what that ammo, with sealed primers, is the cleanest burning ammo I ever fired. Brass did not even have to be cleaned, just deprimed, to run thru the press.
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    Thanks for the advice-

    Looks like im just gonna stick with the +P or NATO power range to shoot in my PCC and not go beyond that.

    Is there different NATO spec ammo for Pistols and SMGs?

    I was wondering if somebody had a load similar to the Hirtenburger surplus, which I thought was just a hotter +P or NATO load. But is apperently +P+. That kindve power level might be too much.

    Thought a PCC would be "beefier" as far as wear compared to a pistol. But maybe not. Chamber is definetly beefier than a handgun barrel. Seems like the 9mm barrels are bored out rifle caliber barrels. Lots of material supporting the chamber compared to a pistol barrel.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    The phenomenon to which I refered, involver different speed powders , all loaded to same pressure specs .
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,382
    maryland
    The issue is not overpressure in the barrel/chamber. The reason SMG barrels (and PCCs, by extension, which are just semi auto SMGs) are thicker than handgun barrels has nothing to do with chamber pressure limits. Since the firearm is fired from the shoulder (with some exceptions) the shooter can generally benefit from a bit more mass. This mitigates recoil. The thicker barrel walls also allow longer periods of sustained fire compared to thinner walled handgun pipes. It is generally assumed that an SMG will be someone's primary weapon. The problem with an AR pattern (with the exception of the CMMG MKGs) SMGs is that they are a simple blowback semi auto. There is no lockup or even a delay (like an MP5) to allow chamber pressure to subside prior to the initiation of rearward bolt movement. I have fired the Colt 9mm AR pattern SMGs and I can tell you that they do not like hot ammo. Parts will break. An MP5 or even an open bolt blowback design (such as an UZI) with a substantially more massive bolt would be a much better choice for snotty ammo.

    There are different NATO loads for 9mm but, to my knowledge, they are not specific to pistol or SMG. Some countries, as I mentioned before, do have different SMG or even particular SMG only loads. Most NATO spec ball that I have seen is 124gr and is +P by US SAAMI standards. Keep in mind that most 9mm firearms (numerically speaking) in NATO inventories are handguns. Submachine guns are, in most countries, police or special purpose military weapons. This means that most "general issue" ammo in 9mm is going to be designed/optimized for handgun use.

    I have actually held the pieces of broken berettas in my hand, so I can say with certainty that I don't trust them in a live threat environment. Browning hi powers (P35) would be another gun that does not do particularly well with the hotter loads. Most glocks seem to do OK up to +P, even when sears are installed in them. I haven't ever seen a full auto sig run for an extended period so I can't comment there. CZ75s (steel frame) seem to be able to handle any ammo made in the Czech countries/Germany/Austria. Their full auto variant is even more of a tank than a glock 18/17 with sear. I have no experience with their plastic guns.

    If you are really set on doing the hot ammo thing, I would suggest an experiment. Load up some standard 9mm and then load up some +P loads. fire them for score on paper. fire them for effect on knock off steel targets. Then load up some standard pressure 147gr and repeat the tests. Decide what meets your downrange needs and factor in what feels better to shoot (if that matters to you).
     

    mtlcafan79

    Ultimate Member
    Sep 11, 2008
    1,279
    PG
    My experience with blow back operated PCC's and reloading is that if you try to load traditional "hot" loads with traditional (slower) magnum powders such as blue dot is that you end up with a lot of unburnt powder all down into the action and disappointing performance. Blow back actions begin opening immediately and there goes your gas seal. A powder that works well in a revolver or a browning action handgun no longer works well due to effectively zero lockup time.
     

    Postell

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Nov 5, 2018
    291
    Rifle and pistol powders are totally different. Take a look at a burn rate chart. I started handloading way back before there was internet. I would not trust anybody’s load data on any open forum. Invest in some handloading books and read.


    I will add to this,
    40+ years of reloading here along with owning many firearms with wildcat rounds.
    Look into buying Quickload software for your reloading adventures, Money well spent. If you have any questions about loading data along with what powder, bullets, cases and primers it will tell you what will happen before you ever load a round. The more data that is entered the more data you will get from it.
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    Thanks-
    I have already bought a variety of ammo....+P Ball Ammo, NATO Ball, and some of the hotter standard ball ammo like Fiocchi and S&B. I will try these out.

    After hearing everything here and looking around online, I will not be putting anything +P+ or beyond through my AR PCC. Not going to shoot anything hotter than +P or NATO spec. I do have a .308 spring and a pretty heavy buffer in it to tame the blowback action.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    I'll bite . If you will be shooting fmj any way , what is the desire for incrementally more velocity ?
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    I'll bite . If you will be shooting fmj any way , what is the desire for incrementally more velocity ?

    I know its not a rifle caliber but mainly to "reach" out farther and shoot flatter.

    Also, if shooting at steel targets to knock them down with more authority. Basically want to maximize the effeciency of the 16" barrel with 9mm round.

    I would have a 10.5 or 12" barrel or even 14.5" but then it would be an SBR, which I dont want to mess with. Or a pistol which id rather have a stock than a brace or buffer tube.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,930
    Messages
    7,259,487
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom