Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop

Alan3413 · Jan 11, 2019

Never mind.

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 11, 2019

Most of the recent police shootings with .40 resulted in death with one shot.

joppaj · Jan 11, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
Most of the recent police shootings with .40 resulted in death with one shot.

Respectfully submitted, but can you back that up? I've never known an officer to fire a single shot from a handgun in a deadly force encounter.

Name Taken · Jan 11, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
Most of the recent police shootings with .40 resulted in death with one shot.

Did you miss an emoji?

zoostation · Jan 11, 2019

I really don't see much difference over 9mm JHP ammo performance from what it was 20 years ago. IMHO .40 is still a much better round for stopping a threat. But what do I know. I only spent 25 years in law enforcement and 6 more in the commercial firearms industry itself. How can I compare with people who go on Youtube to shoot turnips in their backyard or who have never completed an ammo contract in their lives telling us exactly how every police department in the country makes it's purchasing decisions. I'll listen only to scientific independent tests of ammunition performance, and I could also care less what claims any ammo manufacturer tells me about their product. I think the real reason PD's like the 9mm again is the inability of millennial recruits to handle the snappy recoil of the .40. But, it isn't what the mutual admiration societies of the internet gun boards say so I'm probably wrong.

zoostation · Jan 11, 2019

joppaj said:
Respectfully submitted, but can you back that up? I've never known an officer to fire a single shot from a handgun in a deadly force encounter.

It's the new Dim Mak hollowpoint.

zoostation · Jan 11, 2019

kalister1 said:
I once saw Jon Wick kill 2 men in a bar with a Pencil, A PENCIL!

As an aside, you know you're a dog lover when you watch a movie where a guy spends two hours killing about 600 people with up-close head shots in revenge for someone killing his dog, and the one part you always have to skip over is the dog part, because that's disturbing.

daNattyFatty · Jan 12, 2019

Muleskinner said:
I've heard some officers speculating that the change is because the 9mm isn't as deadly so they are switching for liability issues...to me that's hard to believe that would be the reason but in this age of endless litigation and the potential for civil unrest when one group believes all police involved shooting deaths are caused by racist and abusive officers I can easily see some people ( certain politicians) thinking like that.

That's some high level tin foil right there. Not directed at you; what those officers supposedly said/think.

fivepointstar · Jan 12, 2019

zoostation said:
I really don't see much difference over 9mm JHP ammo performance from what it was 20 years ago. IMHO .40 is still a much better round for stopping a threat. But what do I know. I only spent 25 years in law enforcement and 6 more in the commercial firearms industry itself. How can I compare with people who go on Youtube to shoot turnips in their backyard or who have never completed an ammo contract in their lives telling us exactly how every police department in the country makes it's purchasing decisions. I'll listen only to scientific independent tests of ammunition performance, and I could also care less what claims any ammo manufacturer tells me about their product. I think the real reason PD's like the 9mm again is the inability of millennial recruits to handle the snappy recoil of the .40. But, it isn't what the mutual admiration societies of the internet gun boards say so I'm probably wrong.

This!!!

Ballistics has come a long way in 20 yrs. I remember when I went from 9mm to .40 cal. Now I'm back to 9mm 20 yrs later.

1time · Jan 13, 2019

zoostation said:
As an aside, you know you're a dog lover when you watch a movie where a guy spends two hours killing about 600 people with up-close head shots in revenge for someone killing his dog, and the one part you always have to skip over is the dog part, because that's disturbing.

So true

DaemonAssassin · Jan 13, 2019

joppaj said:
Respectfully submitted, but can you back that up? I've never known an officer to fire a single shot from a handgun in a deadly force encounter.

IIRC, a MSP aviation trooper dropped a perp with 2 shots center mass, a few years ago in Frederick. I believe the first shot killed the perp.

cpo · Jan 13, 2019

DaemonAssassin said:
IIRC, a MSP aviation trooper dropped a perp with 2 shots center mass, a few years ago in Frederick. I believe the first shot killed the perp.

There's this too...

https://youtu.be/b-j_2xwSjRQ

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 13, 2019

cpo said:
There's this too...

https://youtu.be/b-j_2xwSjRQ

That .40 cal is really amazing. Definitely has more stopping power than 9mm and that's obvious.

babalou · Jan 14, 2019

Lololol

zoostation said:
It's the new Dim Mak hollowpoint.

What the hell is a deemak? Love Ogre in that movie

swinokur · Jan 14, 2019

When the FBI worked with S&W to create the .40 (10mm lite) ammo because the 10mm they were using had to much recoil, they then adopted the .40 instead of 10mm. Once that happened, many PD followed the FBI lead and adopted the caliber, especially when Glock started producing the .40 semi auto.

The 10mm is superior in every way but it proved too much recoil and muzzle flash for some agents so the 40 was invented, then adopted.

I have several Smith and Wesson 10mm 3rd gen pistols and a G29SF. Sold my G20SF because I wasn't shootin it much.

The best pistol round ever invented IMHO.

bigdv · Jan 14, 2019

That guys hands drove me nuts in the video.

smokey · Jan 14, 2019

Eastern_Water_Moccasin said:
That .40 cal is really amazing. Definitely has more stopping power than 9mm and that's obvious.

I wouldn't say amazing. All service caliber handguns generally suck at quickly stopping people.

Eastern_Water_Moccasin · Jan 14, 2019

swinokur said:
When the FBI worked with S&W to create the .40 (10mm lite) ammo because the 10mm they were using had to much recoil, they then adopted the .40 instead of 10mm. Once that happened, many PD followed the FBI lead and adopted the caliber, especially when Glock started producing the .40 semi auto.

The 10mm is superior in every way but it proved too much recoil and muzzle flash for some agents so the 40 was invented, then adopted.

I have several Smith and Wesson 10mm 3rd gen pistols and a G29SF. Sold my G20SF because I wasn't shootin it much.

The best pistol round ever invented IMHO.

Funny thing is, back in the day, DC cops used the glock 17 and still does and Maryland cops like PG county and MSP use Beretta 92f both 9mm, since the switched over from revolvers and they didn't go to the .40 cal when the FBI did back then but MSP and PG sure did seem to find some benefit in using it since 2008. From my understanding they needed more stopping power and they sure don't seem to be wanting to follow the FBI in the switching back to 9mm decision now. Funny

jcutonilli · Jan 14, 2019

zoostation said:
I really don't see much difference over 9mm JHP ammo performance from what it was 20 years ago. IMHO .40 is still a much better round for stopping a threat. But what do I know. I only spent 25 years in law enforcement and 6 more in the commercial firearms industry itself. How can I compare with people who go on Youtube to shoot turnips in their backyard or who have never completed an ammo contract in their lives telling us exactly how every police department in the country makes it's purchasing decisions. I'll listen only to scientific independent tests of ammunition performance, and I could also care less what claims any ammo manufacturer tells me about their product. I think the real reason PD's like the 9mm again is the inability of millennial recruits to handle the snappy recoil of the .40. But, it isn't what the mutual admiration societies of the internet gun boards say so I'm probably wrong.

I am not sure what you mean by performance. Ballistically there is no real difference. How easily they expand has changed. I think your time frame is a little off though. 40 came out in 1990, which is more like 30 years ago. The more reliably expanding ammo also came out around the same time. Think hydroshock (88) and black talon (91).

DaemonAssassin said:
IIRC, a MSP aviation trooper dropped a perp with 2 shots center mass, a few years ago in Frederick. I believe the first shot killed the perp.

As for performance and statistic of calibers, I found the following article interesting.

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Confirms what the doctor in a previous posts was saying handgun calibers really are not as big a deal as some make them out to be.

zoostation · Jan 14, 2019

jcutonilli said:
I am not sure what you mean by performance. Ballistically there is no real difference. How easily they expand has changed. I think your time frame is a little off though. 40 came out in 1990, which is more like 30 years ago. The more reliably expanding ammo also came out around the same time. Think hydroshock (88) and black talon (91).

Thanks for the tip on when .40 came out. But I kinda remember since I was there for it. I don't think you really grasped what I was saying. Anyway, just saying that there is no real difference in ballistics does not make it so. Most of the tests I have read from neutral sources show most quality 9mm JHP struggling to expand even over a half-inch, while most quality .40 JHP tends to reliably run .60-.65" in expansion. When talking about overall surface area .50 inches in diameter gives a total surface area of .39 square inches, .65 inches in diameter give a total surface area of .66 inches squared. So these numbers that the gun writers declare are "insignificant" really aren't. What's insignificant is the level of knowledge the great majority of the internet gun blog press seems to have with anything beyond walking around acting self-important and asking for free hats at Shot Show, and annoying the industry professionals who have to pretend to care what they think. Wound cavity is another aspect not measured and seemingly not understood by much of Google Gun public. It's significantly larger with .40 ammunition, people are welcome to research this on their own if they don''t believe me.

Why COPS use .40: Q & A With a Cop

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

Ultimate Member

Member

Sheepdog

Ultimate Member

, ,

, ,

, ,

Ultimate Member

Thank you MD-Goodbye

Ultimate Member

Why should we Free BSD?

hmmm......

Member

Ultimate Member

In a State of Bliss

Ultimate Member

2A TEACHER

Member

Ultimate Member

, ,

Users who are viewing this thread

Log in

Forum statistics