AR15 for hunting deer

Klunatic · Nov 22, 2017

dreadpirate said:
Best dad ever

Tell that to the wife

Please!!

Uncle Duke said:
She can shoot too. Must have had a good teacher.

Congrats young lady! Great to see!

I taught her the fundamentals and then she shot NRA 5 meter 4 position BB gun for 4 years. I am a very proud Papa.

gwchem said:
Yes sir, and I'm not ashamed either. I took what I thought was a good shot on a walking deer and that's how it turned out. Will I do better next time? You bet!

Second downside to that bad shot was losing a ton of meat from that leg due to the damage and hip shattering.

Congrats on the 1st deer, that pounding heart in your throat makes any shot challenging. Next time grunt, whistle or even bark at the deer, it will make it stop then take your shot. Good luck, plenty of hunting season left.

Doco Overboard · Nov 22, 2017

Having a good rifle sight combination doesn't always add up to a better marksman. Knowing how to shoot properly is probably the biggest deficit with modern day hunters. Shooting like a lot of skills is something that improves with practice. Once you have the fundamentals down and your rifle ready to go how many people really have an opportunity for practicing under actual field conditions? The days of wandering around with a 22 plinking or small game hunting are largely gone for most that live in urban areas. Or even using a rifle from a stand fox hunting just to see what kind of position you need to meet to make a shot.
How many that do not have access to private lands even get a shot at a deer in our state? How would you know when a shot is risky or unobtainable entirely?
Edward Matunis has written extensively on the subject and has published data titled as OGW that can be found in older Lyman load manuals. This information is from the 47th. The first statement indicates no ranking system would be meaningful if the proper selection of bullet is not selected in the first place.
He writes that for sporting applications where a hunter can place a bullet into the vitals up to and including quartering shots area, an extra margin of 25% heavier than would be encountered game weight (as has been determined by the formula) should be selected.
Matunis' table illustrates average weight for whitetail deer to be 125lbs. and a 55 grain 223 caliber proji at 3240fps. good for 51 lbs at the muzzle and 31 lbs.@100yds.
Keep in mind this is from the 47th edition. Bullet construction and degree of selection has dramatically increased in the last few years. What I think about is manufactures soliciting products to meet demands of modern shooters and they're equipment.
I will admit that some 75 gr .224 projies that I'm familiar with have high BC and sectional densities that approach 100 grain .243 diameter bullets but may not meet magazine length requirements in a lot of popular 223 sporting rifles.
Having to single load in a repeating rifle at least for me is not part of a well planned deer hunt or the best strategy for my purpose.
Matunis formula presents a .243 rifle with a 100 gr. bullet for 389 lbs. at the muzzle and 294 at 100yds. which at least where I hunt is not very inspiring considering the type of game hunted and the distances a shot may present itself.
Just the other day my daughter shot a small buck front on and straight between the shoulders with a 243. The bullet stayed together migrated through a lung and was found in the paunch right before the rear quarter.
The shot was taken from a rested position at about 140 yds. with a 100 grain boat tail spitzer. She had to shoot it again to finally dispatch it and make it fall to the ground. Even she at 14 years old said next time shes using the 308, that little rifle shoots nice but it doesn't have a lot of knock down power does it? What does she know right?
Happy hunting, Im off all next week so if anybody gets jammed up near Cambridge, Vienna and needs a hand let me know.

lazarus · Nov 22, 2017

Doco Overboard said:
Having a good rifle sight combination doesn't always add up to a better marksman. Knowing how to shoot properly is probably the biggest deficit with modern day hunters. Shooting like a lot of skills is something that improves with practice. Once you have the fundamentals down and your rifle ready to go how many people really have an opportunity for practicing under actual field conditions? The days of wandering around with a 22 plinking or small game hunting are largely gone for most that live in urban areas. Or even using a rifle from a stand fox hunting just to see what kind of position you need to meet to make a shot.
How many that do not have access to private lands even get a shot at a deer in our state? How would you know when a shot is risky or unobtainable entirely?
Edward Matunis has written extensively on the subject and has published data titled as OGW that can be found in older Lyman load manuals. This information is from the 47th. The first statement indicates no ranking system would be meaningful if the proper selection of bullet is not selected in the first place.
He writes that for sporting applications where a hunter can place a bullet into the vitals up to and including quartering shots area, an extra margin of 25% heavier than would be encountered game weight (as has been determined by the formula) should be selected.
Matunis' table illustrates average weight for whitetail deer to be 125lbs. and a 55 grain 223 caliber proji at 3240fps. good for 51 lbs at the muzzle and 31 lbs.@100yds.
Keep in mind this is from the 47th edition. Bullet construction and degree of selection has dramatically increased in the last few years. What I think about is manufactures soliciting products to meet demands of modern shooters and they're equipment.
I will admit that some 75 gr .224 projies that I'm familiar with have high BC and sectional densities that approach 100 grain .243 diameter bullets but may not meet magazine length requirements in a lot of popular 223 sporting rifles.
Having to single load in a repeating rifle at least for me is not part of a well planned deer hunt or the best strategy for my purpose.
Matunis formula presents a .243 rifle with a 100 gr. bullet for 389 lbs. at the muzzle and 294 at 100yds. which at least where I hunt is not very inspiring considering the type of game hunted and the distances a shot may present itself.
Just the other day my daughter shot a small buck front on and straight between the shoulders with a 243. The bullet stayed together migrated through a lung and was found in the paunch right before the rear quarter.
The shot was taken from a rested position at about 140 yds. with a 100 grain boat tail spitzer. She had to shoot it again to finally dispatch it and make it fall to the ground. Even she at 14 years old said next time shes using the 308, that little rifle shoots nice but it doesn't have a lot of knock down power does it? What does she know right?
Happy hunting, Im off all next week so if anybody gets jammed up near Cambridge, Vienna and needs a hand let me know.

Knock down isn’t a thing.

You are talking wounding potential. Sounds like the .243 did about as good as anything might. A .308 would have done a little better for damage and might have penetrated a little deeper. Probably still wouldn’t have dropped it right away. Doesn’t sound like it was mechanically incapacitated from the shot (no broken shoulder, spine or hip). A single lung was hit. That is likely to take a long time to kill no matter what. That’s why a head on shot isn’t desirable. You have to get a heart or spine hit to be DRT or very quickly killing. A single lung, liver or lung and liver is likely to take a couple to a few minutes to kill an animal (or longer depending on the damage on the hit). That is a long distance to run.

Shot placement is still key, no matter the caliber unless you are stepping it WAY up. Okay, a 12ga slug at 20 yds shot placement pretty much doesn’t matter. You are likely to blow a limb off, put a double fist sized hole in it, etc. if the placement is bad enough, you still might not drop it right then and there, but it takes an unlucky hit indeed if it doesn’t drop quickly with a solid hit anywhere.

A .50BMG the same. Just about anything lesser than those and a not broadside shot to the vitals is not a good shot placement. A deeply penetrating round with a quartering shot could be just fine (more severe the quartering angle, the worse the shot angle). Most anything else is likely to mean needing more than one shot, or a lot of tracking.

PS there are a lot of medium game .223 bullets loaded that work just fine in semi-autos. Federal fusion MSR 64gr, Winchester PP 64gr, federal power shok 64gr, Speer golddot in 62/64gr and 75gr. IIRC Barnes makes one.

But the thing is, that round that penetrates 18 inches and expands to .45” might be just dandy to drop a 150lb white tail broadside in with a double lung hit, but probably would call for a .308 that penetrates 28 inches and expands to .6” on a severe quartering shot.

Doco Overboard · Nov 22, 2017

What is knock down power? I consider it the ability of any projectile regardless of what it is to to kill by shock. Which is what guns do. I just looked at the federal 22 cal energy table for the MSR bullet. It looks to me that it doesn't even meet legal requirements of the state to be legal for deer hunting. Unless they changed it to something less than 1200 ft lbs at the muzzle or unless I'm reading the chart wrong. https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-msr/f223msr1
I haven't looked at the others yet but I'm going to check them out.

Doco Overboard · Nov 22, 2017

Winchester 62 gr advertises 1296, actually looks like a good cartridge in terms of velocity. According to their site it only loses 293 ft lbs in a hundred yards which is less than the same manufactures 150gr load in 270 with the exception of the obvious difference in ft lbs between the two. Buffalo bullets seems to make a good load too, I was surprised to see that.

MattTheGunslinger · Nov 22, 2017

There is a lot of good info here. Thank you everyone.

Between my father and I, there is about 70 years of hunting experience. Neither one of us have made a shot that only caused an injury. We are well aware of our own and our gears limitations. That's why we chose to set a 150yd max. There are opportunities for 600yd shots on the property we hunt. Honestly, I wouldn't want to shoot a deer that far and have to go get it on the other side of the valley! No need to worry about making ethical choices here.

We both currently hunt with 30-06. I can't speak for my dad, but of all the deer I've shot, I've never had one just drop. The vast majority of my kills have been double lung hits. Many the heart as well. The deer were dead on their feet and just didn't know it. They still ran anywhere from 20 to 70 yards. That being said, if I can accomplish the same thing with a lighter rifle, with less recoil, I want to do it.

Still can't make my mind up between 6.8, 300blk, and 6.5 though. Can anyone recommend some brands to check out? I saw Rock River and liked their Coyote upper.

Klunatic · Nov 22, 2017

Do you reload or buy ammo off the shelf? Ammo availability is something you should also consider.

MattTheGunslinger · Nov 23, 2017

I won't be reloading. I've been looking at 6.5 and 6.8 ammo from a few places. Prices and availability seem to be about equal.

parttimer · Nov 23, 2017

Off the caliber topic but, still on the topic of the OP. Most of the calibers mentioned in the thread would be exempt from the H-bar rule so your father would not need to use a pre ban lower.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 23, 2017

Ok , the thread has drifted into the Other Perennial Debate - What is enough/ reasonanly adaquate/ desireable to hunt ( usually deer ) . Aka "more is always better" vs " enough is actually enough " vs " dosen't matter, if you hit the right spot " .

Annnnd , all three have elements of truth, and varying degrees of " not so much " .

And near the top , I will mention the concept of. * Suitable as All Around Deer Rifle * , meaning decent hit suitable for just about any whitetail , at any somewhat reasonable angle, out to distance of majority of shots on deer . Think penetrate a shoulder before reaching chest cavity . Think out to a least 250yds, more like 300yds .

Essentially you could hunt with it in any style of hunting , and 90% plus never need to think of any gun related limitations. ( Sub catagory - think only about distances beyond medium ).

The only way to roll ? Nope . Some people don't hunt where, or using methods needful of long distance capability.

Some people prefer a more challenging method on purpose . Think, archery , muzzleloaders, and handguns .And tailor their methods, distances, and waiting for necessary target presentation to suit.

More sometimes IS More , but the margins for truly "bad" shot place are pretty narrow . In discussing lower end ctgs , the larger issues would be for shots that would be shots at quatering angles where an All Around cal could have penetrated a front shoulder, or traveled farther thru the body on the diagonal, and the low end cal couldn't.

To me this is an issue of taking shots that shouldn't have been taken.

I occasionally use phrases like " bow hunting with a gun " or " pistol hunting with a rifle " .

This means having the distances , and waiting for unobstructed broadside shot, and shot placement, similar to using a bow .

If you stalk / position yourself within 25yds , and take only unobstructed heart shot , a .223 is entirely adequate for whitetail .( Yeah, yeah , can be stretched somewhat farther with same angles & placement , but I'm being conservative to establish a baseline.)

Moving upwards, I will digress to historic hunting collective experences . .30-30 is unquesionably effective within the limits of iron sights & 20/20 vision .

The .250Savage was intended to be, and proved to be the bee's knees for deer, with trajectories convenient for 200-250yds . Buncha other midbore ctgs with similar energy levels, ( .25Rem , .257R mild loads , 6.5 Swede & misc other european ) had similar reps, with some variation in distances due to BC's .

Modern times, all the popular midbore AR-15 ctgs have energies in same ball park in similar bore size.

And while I am rambling- Yes Md regs specify a number for ft lb . Ft lb by itself is poor predictor. Leads to such comparisons as .22-250 being better than SAAMI .45-70 , and .223 being legal , and .38-55 not .Don't break Md law, while in Md, but take huge grain of salt in comparing Md regs , and real world effectiveness.

BigSteve57 · Nov 23, 2017

The Mrs and I hunted with an AR platform for the first time last week. She took a 100lb Ram which was killed instantly with a traditional quartering-away behind-the shoulder shot.
My 2 cents is that I would suggest that you pay careful attention to the ammo you use. Be sure to use a hunting style bullet and not something like 62 gr. green tip which won't expand. Also avoid target ammo which will likely result in a bullet that fragments on impact. In the AR caliber (for her a SIG 516) we chose Barnes 70 gr. 5.56 X 45mm NATO #31191.

So, we would say an AR platform is fine where legal, if it's the right ammo, the right distance and of course the right shot placement for a quick humane kill.
But that basically defines the judgement used in hunting anything now doesn't it?

REF:
http://www.barnesbullets.com/ammunition/vor-tx-rifle/

DaemonAssassin · Nov 23, 2017

Doco Overboard said:
What is knock down power? I consider it the ability of any projectile regardless of what it is to to kill by shock. Which is what guns do. I just looked at the federal 22 cal energy table for the MSR bullet. It looks to me that it doesn't even meet legal requirements of the state to be legal for deer hunting. Unless they changed it to something less than 1200 ft lbs at the muzzle or unless I'm reading the chart wrong. https://www.federalpremium.com/ammunition/rifle/family/fusion/fusion-msr/f223msr1
I haven't looked at the others yet but I'm going to check them out.

There is no such thing as "knock down power" in the ballistics world. What you have is the temporary wound cavity and permanent wound cavity. The temporary wound cavity is cause by the hydro-static effect of a projectile moving through a water dense medium. It is the temporary wound cavity that causes the animal to go into shock (medical term for the body's reaction to severe physical trauma) and the fight or flight decision is made. The more energy a projectile has, they larger the temporary wound cavity is and the larger the permanent wound cavity.

The problem here is that some people are equating a good smallbore hunting bullet with a misconception about the laws of physics. A 30 caliber 110gr bullet out of 300BLK has about 1400-1500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, while a 110gr 308 has about 2500 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. Which one is better for hunting?

Huckleberry · Nov 23, 2017

Surprised no one had posted about 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf as alternatives

With all 3 ballistics equalling modern 45/70, you could hunt anything in North America

Always bring enough gun

Klunatic · Nov 23, 2017

Huckleberry said:
Surprised no one had posted about 450 Bushmaster, 458 SOCOM or 50 Beowulf as alternatives

With all 3 ballistics equalling modern 45/70, you could hunt anything in North America

Always bring enough gun

That also comes with lots of recoil and added weight. The OP already hunts with 30-06, I think he was looking for a softer shooting lighter alternative.

davsco · Nov 23, 2017

first, you (at least I) NEVER feel the recoil in the field. sure, you feel it some when sighting the rifle in but that's a once-a-year thing and we're talking a handful of shots.

second, there is no free lunch with recoil and energy. if it's going to hit the deer hard, you're going to feel it also. of course that can be mitigated with a brake (louder), heavier gun, better recoil pad or thicker coat and the like, all trade-offs of various sorts.

in any event, the OP has a lot of suggestions and advice here and hopefully he will pick something that works for him/family and also the deer.

woodline · Nov 23, 2017

Matt said:
I won't be reloading. I've been looking at 6.5 and 6.8 ammo from a few places. Prices and availability seem to be about equal.

Those are both certainly adequate for deer at the range you specify, as is .300blk.

All three have different characteristics. My thoughts on them from semi auto rifles:

6.5 Grendel: slightly lower energy and velocity at the muzzle than 6.8spc, better BCs and higher sectional density. Uses a weaker bolt than .300 BLK. Cheap steel cased bimetal plinking rounds available if you decide you want to use them. Assuming they tumble as well as designed, could be adequate for home defense to buy cheap and stack deep as well. Really seems to shine at 12"ish barrel length and 18"+ barrel lengths. Doesn't suppress quite as easily as the other two. Will require new mags or at least followers. Really benefits from adjustable gas. Being looked at seriously for military adoption outside of the U.S.

6.8 SPC: higher initial energy than 6.5, suppresses well but not as good as .300blk. No cheap plinking ammo. Higher SD than .300blk. Weaker bolt design than .300blk. Will need specific mags or followers. Shines with 16" and shorter barrels. Less finnicky about gas system than 6.5, probably more than .300blk, but not bad at all. I think some small police/mil forces have adopted it.

.300blk: best diversity of ammo, particularly for reloaders. Uses standard 5.56 bolts and mags. Shines from shorter barrels, 11" and less. A breeze to suppress for supers and subs. Worse SD than the other two options. Lowest velocity and probably the shortest range. No cheap plinking ammo. Adjustable gas system probably not necessary. Seems to have good mil/LEO support in limited special purpose applications.

Personally I find 6.5g and .300blk to be the more interesting cartridges, but I value versatility a lot more than is really necessary in most cases.

Biggfoot44 · Nov 23, 2017

Absolutely, .450Bush , .458SOCOM , .50Beo, and a few other wildcats are more than plenty for mere whitetails , and can be legitimate for elk, bears, etc . Sure there's more recoil than midbores , but if you're good to go with .45-70, short mag 12ga , etc , just same old, same old . The limiting factor is trajectory, being much more rainbow like than say a .30-30. Most modern users prefer a flatter trajectory. But if you have a jones for big bores , and either have hunting location/ style that is short range , or are comfortable with range estimation and Kentucky Elevation , by all means go big . My shooting/ hunting partner #2 has a Beo , and it admirably slays Va Mtn whitetails. As did his .50AE upper he had prior to introduction of the Beowulf . ( He also has numerous other flat shooting rifles. And a Blackout )

But the usual suspect ( plus many wildcats ) of midbore AR ctgs have plenty enough power, moderate recoil , and trajectories that range from flat in comparison to .30-30 , to flat in absolute sense .

As much fun as it is to good naturedly debate the relative ballistic merits of SPCs , Grendels , Whispers ( & ripoffs thereof) , and 7.62x39 , within the Parameters of whitetail within medium ( by deer hunting standards ) distances, they can be considered interchangablely for purpose. Heck , .25Sharps too . And various of the 6mm Grendel or SPC based wildcats could arguably be better than all of the above.

lazarus · Nov 23, 2017

A quick mention on the wolf 6.5 Grendel bimetal/steel jacketed stuff. From what I have read and pictures I’ve seen, it isn’t a solid core. The lead core has a flat meplat with the jacketing forming a “windscreen” coming to a much sharper point leaving a small hollow cavity between the jacket tip and the lead core. Kind of like some 5.45x39 has. I haven’t seen any terminal ballistics on Wolf 6.5 Grendel, but likely it would cause abrupt disruption/tumbling of the bullet on penetrating the target.

In MD it certainly wouldn’t be considered an expanding round and couldn’t be used. My 2 cents, is keep 5.56/.223 for bump in the night. If I was going to use 6.5 Grendel, ammunition is cheap when it comes to defending yourself. Unless you are trying to hold off a horde, 2 loaded mags? Maybe 4 max? Even at $1 a round for good expanding ammo you are talking around $100.

Want 10 high cap mags stacked up and ready to go? Just use 5.56.

DaemonAssassin · Nov 23, 2017

lazarus said:
A quick mention on the wolf 6.5 Grendel bimetal/steel jacketed stuff. From what I have read and pictures I’ve seen, it isn’t a solid core. The lead core has a flat meplat with the jacketing forming a “windscreen” coming to a much sharper point leaving a small hollow cavity between the jacket tip and the lead core. Kind of like some 5.45x39 has. I haven’t seen any terminal ballistics on Wolf 6.5 Grendel, but likely it would cause abrupt disruption/tumbling of the bullet on penetrating the target.

In MD it certainly wouldn’t be considered an expanding round and couldn’t be used. My 2 cents, is keep 5.56/.223 for bump in the night. If I was going to use 6.5 Grendel, ammunition is cheap when it comes to defending yourself. Unless you are trying to hold off a horde, 2 loaded mags? Maybe 4 max? Even at $1 a round for good expanding ammo you are talking around $100.

Want 10 high cap mags stacked up and ready to go? Just use 5.56.

Funny that you say that. I saw some 78gr 300BLK high velocity HD ammo at Lehigh Defense. At almost 2 bucks a trigger pull, this stuff better be the bees knees. I'm highly tempted to give it a shot, after I finish building my 300BLK pistol upper. Your thoughts on the 300BLK ammo?

https://www.lehighdefense.com/colle...se-quarters-lead-free-ammo?variant=1210780584

For HD in general, it is the AR pistol with 55gr FMJBT. Ammo is cheap enough, the pistol is already built, I know how it handles, blah blah blah....

MattTheGunslinger · Nov 24, 2017

Ok. I have finally settled on the caliber. I have decided to go with 6.5 Grendel. After a lot of research and testimonies from people who have used the 4 main calibers dicused here, 6.8spc, 6.5 Grendel, .223, and 300blk, it is clear that they are all more than capable of taking game under the conditions that my father and I hunt. Now the only question is who makes quality parts or complete uppers? I was looking at Alexander arms since they are the originator of the round. I don't see an upper that fits exactly what I envisioned so I may have to build it.

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