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Old December 2nd, 2013, 12:12 PM #11
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Originally Posted by Benanov View Post
Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now
I've taken a few classes, too, and I'm educated enough to know that repeat offenders make up a vast majority of criminals, dude. Come ON, man... This is a massive problem, here in MD.

Furthermore, I'm also educated enough to know that there have been some very high profile studies, funded by the DOJ, that showed that guns scare the piss out of criminals, causing them to avoid violent crime in several key ways, namely the evaluation of breaking and entering, mugging, and armed robbery.

The only thing of yours I agree with is that you can't reduce reasons for crime down to a singular issue, and that is has to be a multi-faceted approach.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 12:57 PM #12
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Originally Posted by abean4187 View Post
There is so little correlation between gun laws and crime that I tend to get annoyed when either side does it (Both sides tend to post really crappy statistics and ignore other factors).
This.

Both sides desperately want there to be a true correlation. And both sides seem perfectly happy to lie (or at least to cherry pick their "facts") in an attempt to convince themselves and (hopefully) others that their opinions are "common sense" truth.

It's like trying to discuss science and reason with fundamentalists.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 01:37 PM #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benanov View Post
Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now

The threat of deterence and actual deterence are two different things. While having the death penalty doesn't deter future crimes, it certainly puts an end to a repeated offense. By deterence we mean locking criminals up instead of letting them out on plea bargains to commit more crimes.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 02:16 PM #14
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"Deterrence" really is the threat of punishment being a deterrent to crime (hence the name) - "I'll get caught and I'll have to do time...I'd rather be outside and free rather than spending 23 hours/day in a cage"

There are people who reoffend solely because they have adjusted to life on the inside and can't function in the free society. There are people who reoffend because they don't care - being in prison or having been in prison is credibility in their social circles. There are people who reoffend because they don't think they'll get caught - as in, the deterrence isn't effective.

And yes, there are people who offend because the punishment is too light or not a punishment at all.

I didn't say it was ineffective. I said it wasn't the sole reason. I am phrasing this very carefully. It frustrates me - just as much as it frustrates all of you - to see people who are wasting my O2 out on parole/bail offending again. Sure, locking them up will work - but that's great for when we can decide cases on such a case-by-case basis (such as in the court system); this is impossible when making policy to deal with crimes that haven't been committed yet (such as law).

MD does err on the side of giving people PBJs for things way too often. I would be foolish to say that I don't know people who have benefitted from that leniency.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:08 PM #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benanov View Post
Funny. 10 years ago I took one administration of justice class, as an elective. It was mildly interesting, but I prefer copyright law.

The number of theories about why people commit crimes is quite high - and it was quite clearly communicated that no single theory - such as deterrence, as you cite above - was responsible for all crime.

So please stop posting that deterrence or the lack of it is responsible for crime. It's definitely a part of the problem but it's not all of it. If it were that simple the problem would have been solved by now

Bull . No one wants to solve it. Its very useful to both sides..

When crime pays you get more of it. Crime pays. Ding dong. Meanwhile its not Republican run cities that are in cascadr failure. Nor is it an accident that the more we study crime the more we get.

But its OK.. this time the cites go down of the count.. and the strap back ton the right will be brutal.. its all about who gets killed and when.... right now the people doing the dying are not connected enough yo matter... give it time.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:10 PM #16
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Originally Posted by MostlyHarmless View Post
This.

Both sides desperately want there to be a true correlation. And both sides seem perfectly happy to lie (or at least to cherry pick their "facts") in an attempt to convince themselves and (hopefully) others that their opinions are "common sense" truth.

It's like trying to discuss science and reason with fundamentalists.
Bull. Inverse corelation is dispositive disproof of the link between crime and leagaly owned guns.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:15 PM #17
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Originally Posted by daggo66 View Post
The threat of deterence and actual deterence are two different things. While having the death penalty doesn't deter future crimes, it certainly puts an end to a repeated offense. By deterence we mean locking criminals up instead of letting them out on plea bargains to commit more crimes.
The death penalty is primarily used as a tool to get pleas. It helps achieve the end state that liberals claim they want -- life in prison with out parole ( well actually 5 years at best for a good murder I would bet....).

Here's a tip liberals the repeat offenders can't repeat when in jail. The more they stay in the system the fewer crimes they commit. That's. not deference -- that the law of physics..
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:22 PM #18
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 04:22 PM #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LongTom View Post
I've taken a few classes, too, and I'm educated enough to know that repeat offenders make up a vast majority of criminals, dude. Come ON, man... This is a massive problem, here in MD.

Furthermore, I'm also educated enough to know that there have been some very high profile studies, funded by the DOJ, that showed that guns scare the piss out of criminals, causing them to avoid violent crime in several key ways, namely the evaluation of breaking and entering, mugging, and armed robbery.

The only thing of yours I agree with is that you can't reduce reasons for crime down to a singular issue, and that is has to be a multi-faceted approach.
All that matters is that all the data shows inverse correlation of crime rates and gun ownership.. all the Antis have left is the claim that it is not a causal link.-- but see without a casual link the right kicks in and all gun laws fail even RB. So they play games and shift the burden of proof.

The burden of proof when you wish to restrict a fundamental right is on those that propose the restrictions. That's it.. game over

Any evidence that gun ownership lowers crime is icing on the cake

John lott has been attacked personally but his work stands all the document and confirmed fraud is on the other side. The burden of proof remains and they will cheat to archive it.
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Old December 2nd, 2013, 06:32 PM #20
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Originally Posted by trickg View Post
I think a better comparison to make, at least for crime in general, is poverty in relation to crime. I think that looser firearms laws can be a deterrent to violent crime, but crime in general has more ties to poverty.
Trying to nail down the cause of crime is like trying to nail down spaghetti. I did a paper in college on crime and poverty and my research blew a hole in the crime/poverty relationship.

The ten poorest counties in America are in Appalachia. And I mean real poverty. No wide screen, no air conditioning, no running water, no electricity. They also have a violent crime rate way below the national average.

I was able to point to a correlation between population density and crime, but no correlation could be made between poverty and crime.

The DOJ web site has some interesting documents with all the statistics. I'll look them up when I get to a real computer.

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