Easiest to manufacture WW1-era bolt action military rifle

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Hoping to tap into experience of people who have oddball and dead-end bolt designs from that era, Lebels, Caracanos, various Mannlichter versions, etc.

    Was there a design in that era that was dramatically easier to manufacture that the others, with the technology available at the time?

    While I'm somewhat familiar with Mosins - grandfather worked at the plant in Izhevsk, heard a lot of stories when I was young - know that both the rimmed round and the rifle itself was in production for so long because of all the upheavals in its homeland 1914-1944, not because it was dramatically superior to other designs. Wonder how manufacturing of it compares to competitors in terms of time and cost.

    What about other systems? Any of the Mauser types, or the SMLE? Anything about them that would ease, cheapen, or streamline production?
     
    Jul 1, 2012
    5,711
    German Volkssturmgewehr VG-1 and VG-2 "last ditch" rifles
    https://www.forgottenweapons.com/german-ww2-rifles/walther-vg1/

    http://www.forgottenweapons.com/german-ww2-rifles/spreewerke-vg-2/
    https://www.rockislandauction.com/detail/67/3245/walther-vrifle
    note the price... also note it's been heavily sanded, painted and isn't functional - yet someone dumped serious money on it.

    My vote for easiest would be the VG-2 since it used a stamped metal receiver and re-used a machine gun barrel.
    These are pretty crude rifles.
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Those are interesting! Pretty fugly, but that's par for the course I suppose, when they said last ditch, they meant it...

    What do you think about the main "national" designs though?
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    At first glance I would say Berthier or MN but remember the reports of French and Russian inspectors here in the US who rejected US built examples (esp the Remington Berthiers)? If there's any credence to the stories then maybe they weren't so easy to build after all! The Japanese Type 38 was a pretty simple design and might fit the description. Ditto for the Remington Rolling Block in 8mm Lebel, built for the French (about 250K delivered so not a major type but significant enough figures).
    But in my mind there was no major design break through that made one type a clear winner. Not like what you saw in WWII with the STEN.
     

    Threeband

    The M1 Does My Talking
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 30, 2006
    25,232
    Carroll County
    I've never had the impression that anyone back then was giving a thought to "ease of manufacture."

    I picture people of that era lying awake, tossing and fretting,"But what if the barrel band is too flimsy? It could fail after 80 or 90 years...Should we add capture screws to keep the capture screws from backing out? The buttplate could be thicker...That rear sight notch is way too big...weakens the sight leaf...must make sight notch smaller..."
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    By the modern context , didn't really happen , so far as bolt action thru WWII . Sure , the 03-A3 and late SMLE's were marginally simplified , but not enough to really be different .

    Simplified designs and cheap manufacturing were a big thing with SMG's during WWII . Likewise huge huge factor in next generation Rifles of semi and full auto rifles . But by WWII bolt actions were mature legacy designs .
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Interesting. So the classic designs were mostly equivalent?

    Making a 2 piece bolt for a Mosin is not really all that different from making a single piece Mauser bolt? I was thinking on that level...

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,877
    There were some differences of course, but the categorical difference with the next generation of rifles was order of magnitude difference. Think the difference between a Thompson SMG and an M4 grease gun.
     

    chooks9

    Bear with Arms
    Jan 3, 2013
    1,155
    Abingdon
    I would think the Arisaka would be pretty easy to build. The bolt is pretty simple, and the overall design is almost a simplified Mauser design.

    I would also think the Carcano would be simple if it had a Mauser magazine. Same for the GEW 1888 (technically still a rifle used in WWI).
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    I would think the Arisaka would be pretty easy to build. The bolt is pretty simple, and the overall design is almost a simplified Mauser design.

    I would also think the Carcano would be simple if it had a Mauser magazine. Same for the GEW 1888 (technically still a rifle used in WWI).
    I know it's wrong to do this to someone offering knowledge for free, but... could I press you for details? I don't have an Arisaka (you're talking about type 99? Or is the 38 substantially similar?), so can't tear one apart... What did they do differently than a G98 that let them skip steps? What's it missing?

    G88 is certainly relevant to the time period I'm interested in, but as it's a total dead end I know nothing about its internal design at all, never seen one in the flesh.

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk
     

    mawkie

    C&R Whisperer
    Sep 28, 2007
    4,337
    Catonsville
    The bolt of the Arisaka has a very simple design. Don't care for the Arisaka safety when compared to the Mauser system. The French copied the Arisaka bolt for the MAS 36 in general layout and did one better by deleting the safety.
    Here's a T2 bolt assembly (thanks to Teri at Nambu World). A whole five parts!
     

    Attachments

    • t2bolt5.jpg
      t2bolt5.jpg
      61.8 KB · Views: 884

    chooks9

    Bear with Arms
    Jan 3, 2013
    1,155
    Abingdon
    I know it's wrong to do this to someone offering knowledge for free, but... could I press you for details? I don't have an Arisaka (you're talking about type 99? Or is the 38 substantially similar?), so can't tear one apart... What did they do differently than a G98 that let them skip steps? What's it missing?

    G88 is certainly relevant to the time period I'm interested in, but as it's a total dead end I know nothing about its internal design at all, never seen one in the flesh.

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk

    Mawkie's image above is one of many reasons it's a much simpler design. They compromised the ease of a flip-switch safety like a G98 to a simpler knob to turn. The bolt doesn't have the rear shroud, either. It's a simple tube with a handle, extractor claw, firing pin, spring, and a safety knob. You omit those small detents, shrouds, and cocking indicators to make a simpler but still strong action.
     

    CodeWarrior1241

    Active Member
    Sep 23, 2013
    827
    Lutherville
    Mawkie's image above is one of many reasons it's a much simpler design. They compromised the ease of a flip-switch safety like a G98 to a simpler knob to turn. The bolt doesn't have the rear shroud, either. It's a simple tube with a handle, extractor claw, firing pin, spring, and a safety knob. You omit those small detents, shrouds, and cocking indicators to make a simpler but still strong action.
    Excellent stuff, making sense.

    Now I am trying to better understand how the early machine guns worked and were manufactured... Particularly why it took until WW1 for the first light machine guns to appear, and to almost WW2 for the first GPMGs to appear. In a way this is even harder, there's less experience to draw from and it's more specialized.

    Sent from my SHIELD Tablet K1 using Tapatalk
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,916
    Messages
    7,258,527
    Members
    33,348
    Latest member
    Eric_Hehl

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom