Rock Island Enfield Copy Questions

TxAggie · May 14, 2013

My dad has a 30-06 that he though was an Enfield, after we looked at it we found that it is stamped Rock Island Armory. I'm not well versed in C&R, but want to learn anything I can, and this looks like my first project.

Any ideas or info that you experts could shed would be appreciated.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1368577552.771074.jpg

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I would call it overall good condition, some light rusting on the outer components and the furniture is worn and could be stripped, but useable. He has used it in the past to bring down a few whitetail.

Thanks again for any info.

zoostation · May 14, 2013

Springfield, not Enfield

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1903_Springfield

WeaponsCollector · May 14, 2013

No Enfield, that's a 1903 Springfield, it's WWI era based on the rear sight configuration and they were also reissued in WWII.
Worth a good bit more than an Enfield. Nice rifle!

TxAggie · May 14, 2013

Thank you! Another great example of the knowledge and generosity of this community. Thank you, gentlemen!

MilsurpDan · May 14, 2013

Nice looking springfield, A word of caution though...Some of the early springfields were only single heat treated leaving them to be considered brittle and unsafe to fire by many people. The serial number range for a "low number rifle" for a Rock Island made rifle is anything below serial number 285,507. I can't really see what the first number of the serial number is, but if its a "1" I'd be pretty cautious before I shot it. Some people say that shooting the low number rifles is ok but I don't think I'd take that chance myself

Threeband · May 14, 2013

You have a US Rifle, Model of 1903, usually called a "Springfield", although yours is actually a Rock Island.

The US Rifle, Model of 1917 is the one nicknamed "The American Enfield". An entirely different beast.

Anyway, you have a Low Number Rock Island 1903. (Serial number below 285,506.) Many people consider them unsafe to shoot. In fact, that is the prevailing wisdom: they are unsafe to shoot.

Some people do shoot them with light loads, a few people shoot them with full power loads. The Army and Marines did reissue them in WWII. I think the "danger" is probably way, way far exaggerated, but you should know about it to make an informed decision.

The problem comes from improper heat treating of the receivers, causing the steel to become brittle. A very, very small number burst on firing. I think the total number of kabooms was less than 30, but I'm going from memory here. As far as I know the last one to burst was back in the 1920s.

Still, it's something that could definitely kill you. That's why most people don't shoot them. That's also why so many of the very nicest '03 Springfields can be had at bargain prices: collectors buy them not intending to shoot them.

Some Observations On The Failure
Of U.S. Model 1903 Rifle Receivers

edit to add:

Looks like "Between 1917 and 1929 there were 68 burst receivers."

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=s9NuBF0Rv2DizFHkR5wCbQ&bvm=bv.46471029,d.dmg

By the way, that looks like a World War II era stock. The Marines used a lot of low number '03 rifles in WWII. (Not a single one burst.)

Please oil the metal, and rub some linseed oil into the stock.

.

reverendbeer · May 15, 2013

Threeband said:
Please oil the metal, and rub some linseed oil into the stock.

This. A million times this.

TxAggie · May 15, 2013

reverendbeer said:
This. A million times this.

If I can pry it from his hands, I definitely will! He said he bought it decades ago at a gun show, guy had it on the table and it looked nice to him. He used it as a hunting rifles for a few years and took 3 whitetail buck with it before he bought a 300 Wby Mag.

Hopefully I can get it from him and clean it up and display it.

cougar70 · May 16, 2013

After reading through the first link: Some Observations On The Failure Of U.S. Model 1903 Rifle Receivers
I noted a couple points, that I have copied important quotes below.
It sounds like it may have been a combination of single heat treating and the soft brass cases.
Either way, it's definitely a great looking piece!
Maybe you could keep your eyes open for a properly heat treated receiver to swap out to make it safer.

"The lack of receiver failures after 1929 may have occurred because the rifles with the most brittle metal had been eliminated in the 1917-1929 period. Another important factor is the exhaustion or retirement of soft brass cartridge cases manufactured during the crisis of World War I and still being used up to 1929.."

Additional evidence for this explanation comes from the experience of the 1st Marine Division on Guadal Canal The Marine Corp made no effort to replace their low numbered Springfield rifles, and these rifles saw heavy use on Guadal Canal between August 1942 and February 1943. No receiver failures were reported in the training period before the battles, and during the four major battles that occurred in the seven month period in 1942-43. While it's not possible to estimate the exact number of rifles involved, up to 7,000 would have been in use by the three rifle regiments of the 1st Marine Division, Based on the failure rates of 1917-1918 between one and two rifle receivers would have been expected to fail."

"It also suggests that ammunition manufactured during World War I likely played a major role in receiver failures. "

Chaunsey · May 16, 2013

they were not ALL poorly heat treated, from what ive read in the past apparently the main issue was that some of them were actually eyeballing the temp based on color, and thats not precise enough a measure and can be effected by lighting conditions and person to person.

out of millions of rifles, probably less than a hundred ever had an issue.

for every one that had a problem, there were probably 100,000 that saw plenty of use and never had a problem.

the fact your father fired it many times means it is likely completely safe, but it is your face behind the rifle, not anyone elses so whatever advice or information we may give make your own decision for if its worth shooting.

i would NOT recommend replacing the receiver, not only would that cost hundreds to buy and have swapped but you'd be destroying the history and a large chunk of the collectors value of the rifle.

if you dont want to shoot it, a better option would be to look for a 1903 to buy that you will shoot.

you might find one around for $600-$1000 depending on many factors.

TxAggie · May 16, 2013

No need to shoot it to appreciate it. I'm not one who thinks history is shiny and pristine, it's bloody, cruel, and violent. I will be perfectly happy with cleaning it up, getting rid of the rust, and have it in a condition that if needed, I could fire it. But ultimately it would be a reminder of the craftsmanship, labor, sweat, and blood that is the history of our country.

303_enfield · May 19, 2013

What's the date on the barrel? Also, please post a pic of the front of the rifle.

I'd take the old girl in a minute

TxAggie · Sep 30, 2013

Thank you everyone for all of the information a few months back. My dad called me tonight and said he is planning to ship the rifle to me next week.

So obviously, living in the People's Republic, what is the process for transferring this type of rifle? Does it have to go through and FFL or can it be shipped directly to me? (I'm NOT a C&R license holder, but that might be changing.)

MilsurpDan · Sep 30, 2013

TxAggie said:
Thank you everyone for all of the information a few months back. My dad called me tonight and said he is planning to ship the rifle to me next week.

So obviously, living in the People's Republic, what is the process for transferring this type of rifle? Does it have to go through and FFL or can it be shipped directly to me? (I'm NOT a C&R license holder, but that might be changing.)

Must be shipped to an FFL

Machodoc · Oct 1, 2013

Be sure, when you get it, that you don't get too over-enthusiastic about making it look shiny and new. A good cleaning may be all you need. That's a nice-looking rifle!

Threeband · Oct 1, 2013

I believe the wait time for a C&R license is pretty short these days. Why not send in the paperwork this afternoon, get your C&R by mid-November, and he can ship the rifle to you.

CasualObserver · Oct 1, 2013

Threeband said:
I believe the wait time for a C&R license is pretty short these days. Why not send in the paperwork this afternoon, get your C&R by mid-November, and he can ship the rifle to you.

2x the above. C&R is only like $30 if I remember right... you'll spend close to that with the FFL transfer I bet. Down side is that you'll end up spending lots more $ in the future on future purchases as having a C&R for many of us is basically an adiction.

TxAggie · Oct 1, 2013

CasualObserver said:
2x the above. C&R is only like $30 if I remember right... you'll spend close to that with the FFL transfer I bet. Down side is that you'll end up spending lots more $ in the future on future purchases as having a C&R for many of us is basically an adiction.

Thank you, that's exactly the info I needed. I probably will get my C&R, for now I'll check on FFL rates just because I don't want to risk this being left on my front porch.

And thank you for the tips on restoring this piece. I'm definitely not going overboard, just light cleanup and conditioning. I'll pursue the C&R threads on how to do this best.

Just in time since it looks like I'm done buying AR's!

Sev89 · Oct 1, 2013

TxAggie said:
Thank you, that's exactly the info I needed. I probably will get my C&R, for now I'll check on FFL rates just because I don't want to risk this being left on my front porch.

Any and all C&R deliveries require adult signature.

mawkie · Oct 2, 2013

A keeper. Glad to see you're wise enough to take everyone's good advice about simple cleaning and oiling to preserve the original finish and to keep it from the range. I have a RI 1903 that was rebuilt for WWII with a High Standard barrel (good stuff). But I don't shoot it as I'm fortunate to have a nice Remington1903A3 for range duty.

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