.45 Colt Case Rim Issue

Uncle Duke · Oct 16, 2013

I don't load this cartridge often, but I've long been aware of being cautious with the case rims on this cartridge. Loading on a single stage last night and DAMNED if I didn't shear one off about 75 cases in. Starline brass too, which is a favorite of mine. And not during the sizing step where I'd have expected it to be more likely, but rather during case mouth expanding. Rotated the case to get a new bite in the shellholder after the initial shear and completely destroyed the rim with subsequent attempts, it was jammed so tight on the expander. Took me an hour and a half with a pair of needle nose pliers, a Dremel tool with a cutoff wheel and a utility knife to get that case off without destroying the RCBS expander. Was able to score the case wall enough to peel it off in pieces like an orange.......EVENTUALLY!

Never lubed a case mouth before on a straight wall revolver case prior to case mouth expansion, but I damned sure did that afterwards! Going to measure some rims tonight. Maybe polish the expander also. Might have had a rim out of spec to begin with. But I'm also wondering if another shell holder might be available for this cartridge with tighter grip tolerances/rim bearing surface than the RCBS #20 I've been using? This was NOT fun!

Anyone have any similar experiences with .45 Colt? Thoughts or remedies that I haven't considered?

Thanks!

bulletmen · Oct 16, 2013

Polish the expander good idea.Try various shell holders to get best fit.Have noticed a wide variance in 45 Colt rims over the years from different makers.Had a lot of old WESTERN brass that did not want to fit the usual shell holder,found another the fit well.

Deep Creek Rock · Oct 16, 2013

Ive read in many manuals warning about tearing the rims on 45 colt cases. From what I read, its stated to not jerk on the handle, and ease things when you size.

Ive resized many 45 colt cases, and have not torn any of the rims off. I am using an RCBS #20 shell holder,and an RCBS cowboy die set.

Out of curiousity was the expander for a .454" diameter bullet, or for a .452" bullet. My die set came with both plugs.

Uncle Duke · Oct 16, 2013

Deep Creek Rock said:
Ive read in many manuals warning about tearing the rims on 45 colt cases. From what I read, its stated to not jerk on the handle, and ease things when you size.

Ive resized many 45 colt cases, and have not torn any of the rims off. I am using an RCBS #20 shell holder,and an RCBS cowboy die set.

Out of curiousity was the expander for a .454" diameter bullet, or for a .452" bullet. My die set came with both plugs.

THAT sir........ is a damned good question! AND I don't know the answer to that question at present. I am almost sure it's .452 though as the dies are newer standard .45 Colt dies, and I'd have had a lot of slop using the .452 lead SWC otherwise.

I MAY have gotten a bit over zealous with the handle, but am hard pressed to think so. I have long known to be leery of .45 Colt cases, and treat them with kid gloves. Virgin brass here also. Still, it could have happened I suppose. Whatever I did, it sheared enough of the sides off the rim to leave the case on the expander.

From the appearance of the case, there wasn't a whole lot of bite from the shell holder on the sides of the rim to begin with. Leads me to wonder about the specs of that particular case though as I had no trouble with the previous 75 or so cases. So not sure what went wrong. But man, I'd like to figure this out. I can promise you there's no humor and no quick and easy fix that I'm aware of when it happens!

John from MD · Oct 17, 2013

I assume you are using a set of dies that has the expander die also do the decapping.

You can alleviate this problem by using a spray lube, like Midway's, Dillon's, Lyman etc.. Start by lining you cases mouth up in a tuperware tub. Spray accross the mouths and then knock the cases over and spray the sides and then swirl around a little and let dry or dry with a hair dryer.

This will lubricate the inside of the cases and will not affect the powder as long as the lube is alcohol based. This also allows you to use less effort when working the press.

I do most of my reloading on a Dillon press. However, for my small lots, like 44 mag, 30-30, 7.62x54, I use a hand held Lee press. I work the cases while watching TV and the inside lubing really makes it easy on my arms.

Uncle Duke · Oct 17, 2013

John from MD said:
I assume you are using a set of dies that has the expander die also do the decapping.

You can alleviate this problem by using a spray lube, like Midway's, Dillon's, Lyman etc.. Start by lining you cases mouth up in a tuperware tub. Spray accross the mouths and then knock the cases over and spray the sides and then swirl around a little and let dry or dry with a hair dryer.

This will lubricate the inside of the cases and will not affect the powder as long as the lube is alcohol based. This also allows you to use less effort when working the press.

I do most of my reloading on a Dillon press. However, for my small lots, like 44 mag, 30-30, 7.62x54, I use a hand held Lee press. I work the cases while watching TV and the inside lubing really makes it easy on my arms.

Thanks John! Actually, I'm using a seperate expander die. But I definitely do think you're on the right track with the case mouth lube. In fact, that was my first thought also once I was able to cut and peel the old case off the expander plug. I am clearly going to have to be extremely cautious with these cases. A bit of lube noticably lessened the drag of the expander with the next cases I ran, not that the drag felt unusual or bad to begin with before I had the problem. But the last thing I wanted once I was finally able to remove the problem case without destroying the die was another problem case right behind it, so I lubed the inside of the mouth on the last 25 cases I expanded. And ran them GINGERLY! The drag difference to your point was indeed considerable. Certainly a common and best practice with rifle cases, and something I practice religiously with these. But I never thought it might be even remotely needed with straight wall pistol cases. These case rims are known for not being able to take much in the way of working stresses though. I'm now a confirmed and dyed in the wool believer in that particular and oft-published observation!

Winterborn · Oct 17, 2013

Perhaps instead of lubing each case mouth, a dab or spray of case lube on the expander ball instead would be quicker.

I put a little on mine with a q-tip every hundred loads or so, works fine.

Uncle Duke · Oct 17, 2013

RichB said:
Perhaps instead of lubing each case mouth, a dab or spray of case lube on the expander ball instead would be quicker.

I put a little on mine with a q-tip every hundred loads or so, works fine.

That's an idea also Rich! Thanks! Thinking I'm going to polish the hell out of that expander also.

amoebicmagician · Oct 17, 2013

now that you mention it, I've noticed that .45 colt rims vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer.

John from MD · Oct 17, 2013

amoebicmagician said:
now that you mention it, I've noticed that .45 colt rims vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer.

I agree, to the extent sometimes that they won't fit in the same shell holder. :mad54:

This isn't just germain to the .45 Colt however. I load 32-20 cases for my 1895 Nagant pistol. I will never buy Winchester brass in that caliber again due to cracks different rim thickness between cases. :sad20:

R-P cases are stronger and more uniform in my book.

Uncle Duke · Oct 17, 2013

amoebicmagician said:
now that you mention it, I've noticed that .45 colt rims vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Yep. I've seen rim diameter examples running from .505 to .512. .512 is the spec I have seen listed. What I'm not sure of is if the actual allowable rim diameter must be .512, and if anything smaller than .512 is considered out of spec? Or is there an allowable rim diameter tolerance with this case?

What I should have done was to mic the case rim BEFORE I rotated it in the shell holder after I initially sheared the rim on two sides. I'd have had room in the O press to get a mic on the case rim. I thus could have measured the good sides that remained. Instead, I got another bite on the rim and tried again to remove the case from the expander, and had the same results. This destroyed the case for all practical measurement purposes.

I still think I may well have had a single case that was considerably out of spec with the rim diameter.

Pinecone · Oct 17, 2013

The alcohol based lubes are alcohol with GREASE or OIL. The alcohol is a carrier. It evaporates, but leaves the oil or grease.

If you use any form of wet lube, except something like Hornady One Shot that is designed to be left in, tumble the cases after sizing to remove the lube. Otherwise it CAN contaminate the powder or primer.

John from MD · Oct 17, 2013

Pinecone said:
The alcohol based lubes are alcohol with GREASE or OIL. The alcohol is a carrier. It evaporates, but leaves the oil or grease.

If you use any form of wet lube, except something like Hornady One Shot that is designed to be left in, tumble the cases after sizing to remove the lube. Otherwise it CAN contaminate the powder or primer.

Perhaps I was overly inclusive with the lubes I mentioned. Hornady and Midway both state that their spray lubes, IF ALLOWED TO DRY, will not contaminate powder or primer.

I make my own lube using wax and isopropyl alcohol and have never experienced any failures using it. The key is to make sure the stuff is dry which I do by using a heat gun on the cases.

Deep Creek Rock · Oct 17, 2013

amoebicmagician said:
now that you mention it, I've noticed that .45 colt rims vary considerably from manufacturer to manufacturer.

Ive noticed 45 colt rims varying within the same brand. I bought a couple bags of Winchester 45 Colt brass that the rim thickness were allover the place - from the same bag. I wont buy that brand anymore. I even had a case in the bag the was too short - it was way below specs, and unusable.

Ive had very good luck with Starline, which kinda surprises me the OP had an issue with it.

Pinecone · Oct 18, 2013

John from MD said:
Perhaps I was overly inclusive with the lubes I mentioned. Hornady and Midway both state that their spray lubes, IF ALLOWED TO DRY, will not contaminate powder or primer.

I make my own lube using wax and isopropyl alcohol and have never experienced any failures using it. The key is to make sure the stuff is dry which I do by using a heat gun on the cases.

Dillon lube is lanolin and alcohol.

I would not want any wax INSIDE my rounds. Maybe fine as long as they are kept cool, but if out in the sun, the wax and soften or melt and cause problems.

Just no reason to have lube inside the case and no upside to it.

Just tumbled the cases after expanding if you have to lube inside.

But something is wrong. I have loaded 10 of thousands of rounds (.45, .40, 9mm) and never had a case stick hard on the expander.

I would look at the smoothness of the expander. I would also measure a sized case (not expanded) to make sure the sizing die is within tolerance and not sizing the case too small. And finally, making sure I was not trying to over expand the case. Straight wall pistol cases use a two step expander. They expand the neck area for proper neck tension and they slight flare the case mouth for easy seating and not shearing lead bullets. If you try to shove the case too far into the expander, you can jam it.

In fact, for a a single case issue, I would look at the overall length. Maybe a long case.

Uncle Duke · Oct 18, 2013

Interesting......been scratching my head on this, but it seems I'm not alone here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-110458.html

Uncle Duke · Oct 18, 2013

Pinecone said:
Dillon lube is lanolin and alcohol.

I would not want any wax INSIDE my rounds. Maybe fine as long as they are kept cool, but if out in the sun, the wax and soften or melt and cause problems.

Just no reason to have lube inside the case and no upside to it.

Just tumbled the cases after expanding if you have to lube inside.

But something is wrong. I have loaded 10 of thousands of rounds (.45, .40, 9mm) and never had a case stick hard on the expander.

I would look at the smoothness of the expander. I would also measure a sized case (not expanded) to make sure the sizing die is within tolerance and not sizing the case too small. And finally, making sure I was not trying to over expand the case. Straight wall pistol cases use a two step expander. They expand the neck area for proper neck tension and they slight flare the case mouth for easy seating and not shearing lead bullets. If you try to shove the case too far into the expander, you can jam it.

In fact, for a a single case issue, I would look at the overall length. Maybe a long case.

Good points sir! And yes it would be a good idea to check that sizer die. I polished the expander and ran another 100 rounds last night...no problems, but I did very lightly lube the inside of the case mouths. All rims .512, so good there. And yeah....thousands of rounds loaded for me also, and have never previously had a case jam on an expander. Plus, the one that hung up tight....and I mean TIGHT....was the 76th case I ran. :sad20:

Got to looking on the web and just saw something on another forum that tells me that this isn't unheard of though....see above for a link. New Starline brass, and 45 Colt specifically mentioned ironically enough. I would love to figure this out though....what's happening and why. I've never had any issues with Starline brass......actually prefer it and have used it in 7 different cartridge loadings over the years.

Pinecone · Oct 18, 2013

If it was brand new brass, like the link thread, it is likely they are making it a bit undersized,

I did a good bit of new Lapua .308 brass recently, and the necks were small enough that they would not fit onto the mandrel of a Lee Collet Neck Sizing die.

.45 Colt Case Rim Issue

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