Laser or laser/light combo?

Yoshi · Apr 4, 2015

Just for some opinions on laser v. laser/light combo. In particular, the Lasermax Micro v. TLR-2.

I like the TLR-2, but it was pointed out that when using the flashlight, wherever the flashlight goes, the barrel goes that direction too. I know, duh! But, if i just want to illuminate, i dont want the barrel pointed in that direction. I like the mechanism for engaging the laser and light... It requires constant pressure.

The Lasermax is lighter, but I hate having to turn the laser on and off.

Training will eliminate either one of my concerns, but was wondering what y'all use?

HumbleEinstein · Apr 4, 2015

I say no laser at all. Light only.

The laser is a crutch and can lead to bad habits.

That's just my opinion.

Tactics · Apr 4, 2015

Another vote for a quality weapon mounted light without a laser.

Anything I use to defend myself has a light on it. Lasers are cool, just not for me.

Jaybeez · Apr 4, 2015

i want lasers on everything. they are the best way to aim with my pvs-14 monocular.

now that both sides of the argument have been heard, let discuss actual products.

i've been looking at both the laser max UNI, crimson trace railmaster, and the tlr-2. albeit in IR versions. i cant decide either. i think i would have purchased the tlr-4 if it was available in IR because its a light and laser and inexpensive, with remote switches available.

outrider58 · Apr 4, 2015

I don't want a light on a pressure switch. To much of a chance with inadvertent illumination. I like a laser with a pressure switch that will allow momentary and constant on, depending on the number of 'pushes' on the switch as on a Laser Devices DBAL-I2 (and they are equipped with both visual and IR beams)

My goof. you're talking handguns.

Silverlode · Apr 4, 2015

I have a TLR-2 and the laser stopped working after maybe a total of 20 mins of use. It had maybe 500 rounds of recoil abuse (while turned off) attached to a 1911. It is under warranty but I never sent it back.

SCARCQB · Apr 4, 2015

Make sure you can get a holster for the gun/ tac light/ laser combo.

I'd just stick with a light. No laser.

JSW · Apr 4, 2015

I am old school light in week hand -gun in strong hand.

smokey · Apr 4, 2015

I have a TLR1s for my m&p45. At 300 lumens, you don't need to point your gun at something to illluminate it. If you splash it off a wall/floor/ceiling, the whole room lights up plenty to see everything in it. Also, by not looking at the hot spot, you don't burn your night vision as badly. When you do go to aim at something, the hot spot of the light can pretty much double as a laser for aiming purposes at in-home distances. It''ll only be about 6-8" or so from across the room and be pretty close to where the shot will land. I'll try to get pictures tonight so you get a better idea. Also, the switch is either momentary or constant on, depending on which way you toggle it. I prefer actuating it on momentary with my support thumb for a quick strobe to scan and then turn it off and move.

Of course, a handheld light is probably the better option for most low-light stuff...but having the wml for a backup is great. Even if you fumble the handheld light, you have the wml there for identification. Advice to look for holsters first is very sound. In the time between getting my TLR1S and the persec holster it rides in, I only had a craptastic nylon holster to keep the trigger covered. It's not as big a deal if the gun stays in a drawer safe. Many people make holsters for lights, not many make them for the light/laser combos.

swinokur · Apr 4, 2015

Look at Safariland or Blade Tech for light/laser combo holsters.

Not cheap but out there.

Yoshi · Apr 4, 2015

Thanks all.

What bad habits does a laser create/exacerbate?

Silverlode · Apr 4, 2015

Yoshi said:
Thanks all.

What bad habits does a laser create/exacerbate?

I don't think any considering you only practicing using it in situations where you would have to use it. Very low light situations, with NV, etc. There are certainly circumstances where they could be handy. Better to have it and not need it right?

MKR03 · Apr 4, 2015

Yoshi said:
Thanks all.

What bad habits does a laser create/exacerbate?

I think problems would arise only if you practice using the laser to aim exclusively. Inevitably, batteries on the laser will die or it will lose zero. When that happens, if you have been training by just point shooting and focusing on the red dot on the target, there will be a lag time while your brain "remembers" how to line up the iron sights. If you train by using the sights and just using the laser as an extra assurance, you'll be fine. Sort of like co-witnessing a RDS on a rifle with the iron sights. That way, when SHTF with the laser, you're already up on the sights and you don't have to change your point of focus.

Coffee · Apr 5, 2015

I went with a lasermax centerfire on my Shield.

Before buying, I did some reading from those for and against lasers.

-I think the "against" crowd raises valid concerns, that exclusive use/training with the laser can result in bad habits(so, don't stop training with your irons).

-I think "better to have and not need" is compelling, from the "for" crowd.

-The biggest thing that convinced me to go ahead with the purchase, is the idea that I won't be able to adopt a nice textbook isoscelese stance in every scenario. I may end up shooting from the ground or some other position where aiming with irons may not be feasible, but aiming with a laser is.

-I chose lasermax over Crimson Trace, because I didn't like the pressure grip auto-on function of the CT. If I don't need/want the laser on, I have that option with the Lasermax.

-Not gonna lie, I also just plain wanted a laser! And on the Shield it basically adds nothing to weight and very little to profile.

I've only had it to the range once, but it was almost perfectly on-target out of the box; had to make a slight windage adjustment, and it was good to go.

Biggfoot44 · Apr 5, 2015

But you left out the other valid combination - Light and night sights.

Minuteman · Apr 5, 2015

Tlr for sure. And I do recommend the brightest model (I think ~600ish lumens), with red laser. This was researched by another MDS member and I'm glad I took his advice.

Also, Smokey covered most of my points, just about agree with 100% of what he says, I think he's either recycling stuff I've said before, or he's my younger evil twin. Kidding, he's one of the best on the forum.

The tlr allows instant on or lock on, any combo of light and/or laser. If you have NVGs, IR laser would be the ticket, but that's a different ballgame. Train with whatever you plan to use and always also train for worst case (no light/laser in the dark).

For a carry gun, I don't like the bulk of add on lights/lasers, but the setup the curve has, might be the way to go.

lilgibby · Apr 5, 2015

Nothing wrong with a laser but I'd say light only.

Blaster229 · Apr 5, 2015

MKR03 said:
I think problems would arise only if you practice using the laser to aim exclusively. Inevitably, batteries on the laser will die or it will lose zero. When that happens, if you have been training by just point shooting and focusing on the red dot on the target, there will be a lag time while your brain "remembers" how to line up the iron sights. If you train by using the sights and just using the laser as an extra assurance, you'll be fine. Sort of like co-witnessing a RDS on a rifle with the iron sights. That way, when SHTF with the laser, you're already up on the sights and you don't have to change your point of focus.

This. The best way to train with a laser is to not train with it.
Slow aimed fire with one doesn't work. People watch the wobble and try to "shoot the dot" when it's "in the right place". They inevitably jerk the trigger to catch the right time and throw the shot.
This kills me when I see lasers being used at a range.
Chances are in a self defense shot you will point shoot quickly and trying to "place the dot" will only slow you down.
Now a laser can be your "green light" to shoot when you solely use it to see when it's up on target. Eyes on center mass, laser shows up, pull the trigger. Don't follow the laser on it's path going to center mass. But in no way I would try to co witness it with the iron sights in an emergency.

If I were to get (and keep) a laser, It would be a green one. I bought one and returned it. But when I had it, the green was bright enough to splash light off a wall and I really didn't need the flashlight.

smokey · Apr 5, 2015

Here's a picture of what it looks like to shine the TLR1S down a flight of stairs ~20 feet away when mounted on a m&p45. Notice that the hot spot is only about 12" across from this distance and is pretty aligned with the sights. If you cover someone's chest with the hot spot, it essentially turns the light into a laser aiming device. Closer in, the effect is more pronounced. Later when it gets dark, I'll try shining the TLR off the ground/floor/ceiling to show how it illuminates a room without having to point your gun directly at something. It may not come through as well as it should with a cell-phone camera though.

Something else to consider about a WML and night-sight combination. Assuming you'd use the sights and not just point-shoot, with a WML you can pretty clearly make out the sights. Along with reduced muzzle-flip, it's one of the reasons I like having the TLR1s on the gun when shooting at places like on-target, where lighting sucks. With the light on, it's much easier to see the sights and line up a shot. If the light is on, it pretty much washes out night-sights if you've got them on it. Not saying night-sights aren't valuable...they are, but with a WML on you won't notice them as much.

Again though, you have much more flexibility to move and see things without giving up your position as much with a handheld light and it is typically your best option if you train with it. having both a handheld and wml does give you a few more options on how to do things though, and redundancy in case either one fails.

Yoshi · Apr 5, 2015

smokey0118 said:
View attachment 147740

Here's a picture of what it looks like to shine the TLR1S down a flight of stairs ~20 feet away when mounted on a m&p45. Notice that the hot spot is only about 12" across from this distance and is pretty aligned with the sights. If you cover someone's chest with the hot spot, it essentially turns the light into a laser aiming device. Closer in, the effect is more pronounced. Later when it gets dark, I'll try shining the TLR off the ground/floor/ceiling to show how it illuminates a room without having to point your gun directly at something. It may not come through as well as it should with a cell-phone camera though.

Something else to consider about a WML and night-sight combination. Assuming you'd use the sights and not just point-shoot, with a WML you can pretty clearly make out the sights. Along with reduced muzzle-flip, it's one of the reasons I like having the TLR1s on the gun when shooting at places like on-target, where lighting sucks. With the light on, it's much easier to see the sights and line up a shot. If the light is on, it pretty much washes out night-sights if you've got them on it. Not saying night-sights aren't valuable...they are, but with a WML on you won't notice them as much.

Again though, you have much more flexibility to move and see things without giving up your position as much with a handheld light and it is typically your best option if you train with it. having both a handheld and wml does give you a few more options on how to do things though, and redundancy in case either one fails.

Excellent! Thanks for the info... I now know what I am getting. May get the TLR that has both the light/laser just to have the laser option for scenarios mentioned by Blaster and others.

Laser or laser/light combo?

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