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  • Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I was doing some research for another thread and came across some interesting info.

    The very first "assault rifle" was the German StG-44 near the end of WWII. It fired an intermediate power cartridge with select fire capability. The intermediate cartridge allowed longer range like a rifle cartridge, but more controllable full auto like a pistol cartridge.

    The round was the 7.92x33. It fired a 123 grain bullet at about 2200 fps. The standard German Army rifle at the time, fired a 7.92mm diameter bullet.

    The US, when they went to select fire for common troops, stayed with pretty much a full power rifle cartridge with the 7.62x51 (147 grain bullet at 2700 fps to start) in the M14. As did many other countries (FN FAL, etc). But interestingly, the FN FAL was originally designed for the 7.92x33 German intermediate cartridge. The US pushed NATO into keeping a full power cartridge. The Brits wanted the .280 British round, which fired a 139 grain bullet at about 2500 fps.

    The Soviets went with the AK-47 firing the famous 7.62x39 round. The 7.62 caliber was the standard for the Soviet/Russian main rifle (7.62x54R). The AK/7.62x39 fired a 123 grain bullet at about 2400 fps.

    The US finally realized that full power rifle cartridges were not the answer for most soldiers. They did not need the very long range performance, and the full power rounds were not controllable in full auto for most people.

    So we went really small with the 5.56x45 (.223) round. Initially firing a 55 grain bullet at 3300 fps. This was later changed to a 62 grain bullet at 3100 fps, and some special ops use 77 grain bullets at 2750 fps.

    The Soviets followed with the 5.54x39, in the AK-74, firing a 53 or 56 grain bullet at 2900 fps. But most of the world suing Soviet firearms stuck with the AK47/7.62x39. Interestingly, the Soviets developed a subsonic round firing an 80 grain bullet at about 1000 fps. See the other thread about subsonic .223.

    And now days, we have a number of people firing .300 BlackOut, which is a cut down 5.56x45 case, firing a 7.62 mm bullet (same diameter at the 7.62x51). And a normal supersonic load is a 125 grain bullet at 2200 fps.

    HMMMMM, 7.92x33 was 123 grain at 2200, 7.62x39 is 123 grains at 2400 fps. .300 BO is 125 grains at 2200 fps.

    Seems we have come full circle.

    There are other cartridges that are similar ballistics, 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendal (a bit hotter at 123 grains at 2650 fps), etc.
     

    j_h_smith

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 28, 2007
    28,516
    I think anything less than a 50 Beowulf is a mouse gun. Step up to a real AR15 platform. The 50 Beowulf, when you need something to be dead, without compromise. :party29:
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    Arguments could be made that there were predecessors to the title before the STG44/AK ever existed.

    2 examples:

    The Cei-Rigotti - first seen/demonstrated in public in 1900, Rome.

    x4.jpg

    1. Select-fire
    2. Intermediate cartridge: 6.5 Mannlicher-Carcano and 7.65x50mm Mauser
    3. 25 round magazine, rumored to have had a 50 round variant (prototype?) as well. (Fixed box magazine though.)


    The Federov Avtomat - Produced from 1915 to 1924.

    Avtomat_M1916_Fedorov.jpg

    1. Select-fire.
    2. Intermediate cartridge: 6.5x50mmSR Arisaka
    3. 25 round detachable magazine.
     
    Last edited:

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,249
    In a House
    Cough * M2 Carbine* Cough .

    Yeppers.


    I think it would be more accurate to say that the MP44 was not THE first but WAS the first to perfect the concept of the modern "assault rifle". The MKB 42 (both Mauser's and Walther's designs) Predated the MP44 and they most certainly fit the definition of sturmgewehr too. The MP44 is just another step along the way. ALL of them would have culminated in the STG45 being general issue had the war gone on a little longer. Hell, the HK roller locks are nothing more than a product improved STG45:




    Built 37 years apart but still of the same pedigree:

     

    fred333

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Dec 20, 2013
    12,340
    Hell, the HK roller locks are nothing more than a product improved STG45:

    Weren't the original delayed roller-locks built by the same ex-Mauser guys that built the StGs and, later, the Cetme? I believe they were, so what you say makes perfect sense.



    Built 37 years apart but still of the same pedigree:

    Wow! That may be one of the nicest pairs this side of Ann Margaret (c.1960).:)
     

    pappa

    Member
    Dec 9, 2015
    38
    Cough * M2 Carbine* Cough .

    Didn't most decorated soldier , US, of WWII Audie Murphy use the 110FMJ/1900fps carbine for most of his kills. Seems 1911 also used by him. But then he was an exceptional shot, usually making head shots, I read.
    I think we are headed for a little bigger diameter round, maybe 6 to 6.5 mm.
     

    Combloc

    Stop Negassing me!!!!!
    Nov 10, 2010
    7,249
    In a House
    Weren't the original delayed roller-locks built by the same ex-Mauser guys that built the StGs and, later, the Cetme? I believe they were, so what you say makes perfect sense.


    (c.1960).:)


    Yes, they were involved from the STG45 all the way through to the G3. IIRC, the guys who started HK were ex-mauser employees as well.
     

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