Loan, Lease, Will Inclusion, etc. How to get it back.

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    Good afternoon, folks.

    I have a unique situation that I'm trying to solve.


    My Mother In Law (who lives in Maryland) has retired and will be spending alot of time at home alone. She has contacted me, the family firearm enthusiast about acquiring a pistol for self/home defense.

    I made a deal with her and my father in law that if they jump through all of Maryland's hoops, I would send them a pistol to be transferred in all legal manners in Maryland (to an FFL).... but under the condition that the gun is along the lines of a long-term lease, loan, etc. and that I want it back when they no longer want, need it (or when someone/both pass away).

    Now the complication. My MIL is battling cancer at the moment and I want to prevent the family squabble (I'm sure someone here has dealt with it) regarding inheritance should the need arise.

    I don't distrust my Father in Law, but rather some of the other parts of the family (cousins, etc). I'd like to make sure it doesn't go missing in the event of an unoccupied house during a funeral (Ask me why I even have to consider this......)


    Thoughts? I was considering just getting him to sign a letter saying "We got this pistol, Serial XXXX, from GAFrank. I promise to keep and maintain the firearm until such time as it is unneeded/unwanted and to return it to him in such manners as is legal at that time."

    I tried Googling but I can't come up with a query that seems to cover this accurately.
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    I don't distrust my Father in Law, but rather some of the other parts of the family (cousins, etc). I'd like to make sure it doesn't go missing in the event of an unoccupied house during a funeral (Ask me why I even have to consider this......)

    Sounds like there is a story there. I will ask...Why?
     

    GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    Sounds like there is a story there. I will ask...Why?

    The short version, my great Uncle passed away. While we were almost all at the funeral except one cousin who was "sick", the house was broken into and all of his guns (including some war trophies) were stolen.

    Interestingly enough I had one of his guns because I was doing some repairs, refitting to it. The cousin later asked me if I knew what happened to it.

    Only one way he could have known it wasn't "stolen" with the rest.
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,160
    Carroll County
    It appears the pistol you intend to transfer has great monetary or sentimental value to you, for you to be so thorough in making arrangements.

    Might I suggest a different approach - find them something reliable and easy to operate with little monetary OR sentimental value. For example, a second hand .38 revolver, glock pistol, etc. That would seem to be less trouble than arranging a foolproof way to get the loaned item back, and might be more cost effective as well.

    From what I've seen, if you're not set on a specific model handguns can still be found. Its the home defense options that do not require an HQL that have become scarce in MD.

    Good luck.
     

    GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    Look into a gun trust. I just did one yesterday in anticipation of building a SBR. You can open a Trust and transfer any gun or guns you want and list your MIL as co-Trustee. When she dies the gun can be retrieved by the trustee (you) ownership never changes.
    Here's who I used:
    https://thetrustshop.net/nfa-gun-trust/articles/what-is-a-gun-trust/

    Okay,

    The question THEN becomes.... so I do the transfer from the dealer to me here in Georgia, list it in the trust and then.....? Not sure what the sequence of events is.

    Does she still need to do the HQL and Class? Can we hand deliver across state lines?

    Honestly I'd rather risk losing the gun to a thieving relative than risk jail.
     

    Jed195

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2011
    3,901
    MD.
    The short version, my great Uncle passed away. While we were almost all at the funeral except one cousin who was "sick", the house was broken into and all of his guns (including some war trophies) were stolen.

    Interestingly enough I had one of his guns because I was doing some repairs, refitting to it. The cousin later asked me if I knew what happened to it.

    Only one way he could have known it wasn't "stolen" with the rest.

    Exact thing happened in my family...weird.
     

    GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    It appears the pistol you intend to transfer has great monetary or sentimental value to you, for you to be so thorough in making arrangements.

    Might I suggest a different approach - find them something reliable and easy to operate with little monetary OR sentimental value. For example, a second hand .38 revolver, glock pistol, etc. That would seem to be less trouble than arranging a foolproof way to get the loaned item back, and might be more cost effective as well.

    From what I've seen, if you're not set on a specific model handguns can still be found. Its the home defense options that do not require an HQL that have become scarce in MD.

    Good luck.

    Nope, not valuable at all. Its a Glock that I am buying new for them. I just hate the concept of
    A. Thieves
    B. Guns going walk about
    C. Guns going walk about because of thieves

    All in all, its not a world ending amount of financial loss (honestly as it could be 30 years before we have to worry about it, I'm not concerned with the financials) I just like keeping these things under control.
     

    budman93

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 1, 2013
    5,267
    Frederick County
    Nope, not valuable at all. Its a Glock that I am buying new for them. I just hate the concept of
    A. Thieves
    B. Guns going walk about
    C. Guns going walk about because of thieves

    All in all, its not a world ending amount of financial loss (honestly as it could be 30 years before we have to worry about it, I'm not concerned with the financials) I just like keeping these things under control.

    I'm not sure there is much you can do about that. You can have them will it to you or do a trust but none of that can prevent theft. The easiest way to do this is to find them a gun in stock at a shop in Maryland near them and give them the money. I wouldn't buy it in your state and then try to transfer it. The extra steps are unnecessary.
     

    Bob A

    όυ φροντισ
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Nov 11, 2009
    30,691
    The short version, my great Uncle passed away. While we were almost all at the funeral except one cousin who was "sick", the house was broken into and all of his guns (including some war trophies) were stolen.

    Interestingly enough I had one of his guns because I was doing some repairs, refitting to it. The cousin later asked me if I knew what happened to it.

    Only one way he could have known it wasn't "stolen" with the rest.

    This happens frequently.

    Did you inform the police about the cousin? Firearms theft is not something one should let slide.
     

    GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    This happens frequently.

    Did you inform the police about the cousin? Firearms theft is not something one should let slide.

    Police were informed, cousin was listed as suspect. Not sure if lack of evidence, etc but he's still a free man.
     

    Bullfrog

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 8, 2009
    15,160
    Carroll County
    Nope, not valuable at all. Its a Glock that I am buying new for them. I just hate the concept of
    A. Thieves
    B. Guns going walk about
    C. Guns going walk about because of thieves

    All in all, its not a world ending amount of financial loss (honestly as it could be 30 years before we have to worry about it, I'm not concerned with the financials) I just like keeping these things under control.

    I don't think this is an issue you can solve with a piece of paper.

    There are no face to face transfers of handguns in Maryland, so if the questionable cousins you're talking about live in MD, they would have to go through all official hoops before getting possession of the handgun. If they're willing to violate the law and just take it, an extra piece of paper that states it is part of a trust is not going to stop them. It isn't like they walked out of the house with Uncle's shotgun, where they could claim he gave it to them before he passed and it becomes a case of he said/she said. If there was no transfer, they do not have legal possession of the handgun.

    If the cousins are out of state even more so, because they would be in violation of Federal law.


    So... in your cases A and C, laws and pieces of paper aren't going to stop criminals. By definition, criminals break the law. For case B, guns going walking without a crime (or proof of a crime) occuring, that could only happen in MD with a long gun.



    IANAL. ;)
     

    GAFrank

    Member
    Jul 13, 2020
    10
    I don't think this is an issue you can solve with a piece of paper.

    There are no face to face transfers of handguns in Maryland, so if the questionable cousins you're talking about live in MD, they would have to go through all official hoops before getting possession of the handgun. If they're willing to violate the law and just take it, an extra piece of paper that states it is part of a trust is not going to stop them. It isn't like they walked out of the house with Uncle's shotgun, where they could claim he gave it to them before he passed and it becomes a case of he said/she said. If there was no transfer, they do not have legal possession of the handgun.

    If the cousins are out of state even more so, because they would be in violation of Federal law.



    So... in your cases A and C, laws and pieces of paper aren't going to stop criminals. By definition, criminals break the law. For case B, guns going walking without a crime (or proof of a crime) occuring, that could only happen in MD with a long gun.



    IANAL. ;)

    I get all of your points... and the more I consider MD's laws, the main issue I am concerned about (like the Pistol version of the Uncle's Shotgun you mentioned above) cannot happen legally.

    They can't just TAKE the gun and pretend like they own it. You are right, paper won't stop a THIEF, but it would stop a thief in a state that did not have the Handgun transfers laws that MD has already (ie, claiming they bought or were gifted it before the person passed away). You could 100% do this in Georgia.

    So my concerns might be moot.... though I think I'll still ask them to sign something short that should make any issues dealing with probate easier.
     

    hillbilly grandpa

    Active Member
    Jan 26, 2013
    962
    Arnold
    I believe your MIL would still need an HQL to do the following, which may be a means of accomplishing your goals. Others here will either confirm or correct me on this first point:
    1. MIL gets HQL
    2. You set up a gun trust, include MIL as co-trustee.
    3. Deposit funds for the purpose as liquid assets of the trust in a savings account opened for this purpose.
    4. Have MIL purchase the gun with trust funds in her capacity as co-trustee, with the gun listed as a trust asset.

    This would eliminate the interstate transport/transfer issues, and would have titling of the firearm as a trust asset from the outset.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    Give them 500 bucks to buy whatever they want.

    Have them leave the new gun to you in their will.

    Otherwise give them the Glock and don't expect it back. If you do get it back it's a win.
     

    hillbilly grandpa

    Active Member
    Jan 26, 2013
    962
    Arnold
    "Have them leave the new gun to you in their will."

    Then I think you have interstate transfer issues. My suggestion to utilize a trust as outlined above might avoid that headache.
     

    Stevie Boy

    Ultimate Member
    May 2, 2011
    1,060
    Naples, FL and Ocean Pines, MD
    Get them a Wyze or Blink camera. Motion will send an alert and video will be saved to the "cloud". Won't matter if they see and/or take the camera, you'll still have the video evidence. Or, some variation on this theme.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    32,884
    How much do you like your In-laws ?

    There is no foolproof , simple way to ensure speedy return free from dangers of thieving relatives . GIVE them a pistol or not , and consider any future return a lucky bonus .


    Are the In-laws already skilled and proficient with handguns ? If they don't own one , nor have owned or given consideation for at least 7yrs , this is a relevant consideration .

    If not , it might better suit them , and be far less administrative hassle for you and them , to go with a non- regulated Plan B .

    We had a recent thread here with heated debate about shotgun vs PCC in a meaningfully similar scenario . ( Raw majority either favored or felt acceptable the shotgun , but some of the anti- shotgun opinions were very strong .) The cost of a used shotgun or a new Hi Point Carbine is low enough to not sweat not getting it back .

    You could either ship something suitable you already own , or call up to a Md FFL and make the financial arraingements over the phone , and they do the same day paperwork at the dealer .
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,930
    Messages
    7,259,487
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom