Need some help with DC gun laws and gun laws in general!

novus collectus · Nov 15, 2008

Heebs said:
Dual residency...

I wonder if I could use my in-laws place. My wife is still a resident at that address.

Whoa!, your wife is still a resident there? Hell man, let her buy the AR15 or handgun in VA and then bring it back to DC for registration (or buy the AR lower and keep it in VA untill you want to assemble the rifle and bring it to DC for registration). YOu must remember though that she must be residing in that state when she makes the purchase, she can't just drive there and then drive back with the gun that same day.

State of residence. The State in which
an individual resides. An individual resides
in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that
State. If an individual is on active duty as a
member of the Armed Forces, the individual's
State of residence is the State in
which his or her permanent duty station is
located. An alien who is legally in the
United States shall be considered to be a
resident of a State only if the alien is residing
in the State and has resided in the
State for a period of at least 90 days prior
to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm.
The following are examples that illustrate
this definition:
Example 1. A maintains a home in
State X. A travels to State Y on a hunting,
fishing, business, or other type of trip. A
does not become a resident of State Y by
reason of such trip.

Example 2. A is a U.S. citizen and
maintains a home in State X and a home
in State Y. A resides in State X except for
weekends or the summer months of the
year and in State Y for the weekends or
the summer months of the year. During
the time that A actually resides in State X,
A is a resident of State X, and during the
time that A actually resides in State Y, A is
a resident of State Y.

One caveat though, only your wife could possess the handgun or rifle registered to her (when in the home and used for self defense is a gray area though) when in DC (when outside of DC it is generally ok for you to borrow her firearm for sporting use no problem).

You using her place as a residence instead of her may be a problem and a bit sketchy. You have to have the intent to make that location your other residence and to reside there. The FFL is going to ask you or your wife for proof you reside in VA and that can be a VA driver's license or other identification with utility bills with her name on it of a residence in VA.

Heebs · Nov 15, 2008

novus collectus said:
Whoa!, your wife is still a resident there? Hell man, let her buy the AR15 or handgun in VA and then bring it back to DC for registration (or buy the AR lower and keep it in VA untill you want to assemble the rifle and bring it to DC for registration). YOu must remember though that she must be residing in that state when she makes the purchase, she can't just drive there and then drive back with the gun that same day.

One caveat though, only your wife could possess the handgun or rifle registered to her (when in the home and used for self defense is a gray area though) when in DC (when outside of DC it is generally ok for you to borrow her firearm for sporting use no problem).

You using her place as a residence instead of her may be a problem and a bit sketchy. You have to have the intent to make that location your other residence and to reside there. The FFL is going to ask you or your wife for proof you reside in VA and that can be a VA driver's license or other identification with utility bills with her name on it of a residence in VA.

Well we've been out of country since she graduated college. Seeing as we dont have a "permanent" address in the US we've been bouncing between our parent's houses when we come home. She still has her VA license and uses that house as her permanent place of residence. Im not sure how that works out.

novus collectus · Nov 15, 2008

Heebs said:
Well we've been out of country since she graduated college. Seeing as we dont have a "permanent" address in the US we've been bouncing between our parent's houses when we come home. She still has her VA license and uses that house as her permanent place of residence. Im not sure how that works out.

For tax purposes or driver's license purposes it matters where someone maintains their main residence, but with firearms laws it only matters that there is a residence be it for only part of the year and the secondary residence.
She can buy firearms in VA, including a handgun, when she is sleeping there at the time.
DC will only allow her to register the firearm in DC if she is also a DC resident.

I specifically asked the MPD about this situation and it is allowed for a dual resident that has one residence in DC to purchase a firearm in their other state of residence and bring it to their DC residence for registration. Your wife may want to get a DC ID card, or if she has other identification and she can show she is residing in DC (with you being a DC resident and you are her husband I think a proof of marriage along with your proof of residency along with maybe mail sent to her at that address may be enough for the MPD). That way she can register the firearms in DC as a DC resident.
I was told by the MPD sergeant that if her name is on the lease agreement in your place in DC, then that would be enough proof, but this was back in July before the second new gun law, so I hope it is still the same.

By the way, you said you also stay at the DC residence, so that means if you maintain a residence there with her and you can show this, then technically you can buy firearms in VA too, but to be safe, leave that for your wife when she is residing at your other residence in VA if you go this way.

Please remember, I am not a lawyer.

Heebs · Nov 16, 2008

What would the rules be regarding 80% frames that require work by the buyer to finish the frame to be actually usable?

novus collectus · Nov 16, 2008

Heebs said:
What would the rules be regarding 80% frames that require work by the buyer to finish the frame to be actually usable?

I cannot say for 100% certainty, but I am pretty sure the 80% reciever is not a "reciever" and therefore does not fit into the definition of "firearm" in DC. Under federal law it is not a firearm and when the language is the same as fed law, they usually follow fed's interpretation.
If your wife is a VA resident (dual resident) then while she is residing in VA (even for just a weekend), she can buy the stripped reciever you want and just keep it in VA. Even if she later gives up her VA residency completely, she can still store the "firearm" in VA until the day you guys want to complete it to bring into DC for registration if you live in DC at that point.
Joseph Heller, the guy who sued DC and won, kept his handguns he owned before moving to DC in MD or VA for decades while he lived in DC.

By the way, that reminds me somehing I said earlier in this thread that may be wrong. I said the rifle has to be at lead 26" with the buttstock collapsed, but reading the law again it is the same wording as federal law and it is understood to mean the rifle has to be 26" with the buttstock unfolded or extended and when folded it can be less.
I am going to ask for clarification on this part on Monday too.

novus collectus · Nov 18, 2008

I have recieved a response to one of the questions:

If a District resident is buying a long gun from a dealer in Virginia, one would have to pick up an application for registration first, then take it to the dealer and choose a rifle or shotgun they intend to buy and then put the serial number and all other firearms information on the form. The dealer also has to fill out a portion of the form. At this point the rifle still cannot be transferred.
Then the resident takes the application back to the MPD headquarters with DC driver's license or proof of residency and government ID (if you do not have a DC drilvers license, you also have to show proof you have good enough vision to drive by DC standards), $48 (cash or money order). Also needed are 2 face front passport size photos.
On that visit the resident will be fingerprinted and they start the local criminal background check which will take a few days at least.
There is a 20 question test that must also be taken.
Because the background check will take a few days, the approval for purchase will take a few days as well.

This part was not in the email, but I knew this already:
Once the long gun is purchased in VA with the approved registration application, the resident has to tell the MPD when arriving in VA they have the firearm by calling them and should start the rest of the registration process within 48 hours I think (not sure about weekends though).
Do not possess any ammunition in DC at this point if you have no firearms registered yet!!
Take the application and unloaded long gun to the headquarters wrapped or preferably in a case. Notify the guards at the entrance you are there to register a firearm and you have a firearm. At that point they do the ballistics test (takes only a little time) and since you have already submitted your fingerprints, pictures and took the test, I think it will take only a short time.
They will give you your firearm to take home with you, but you cannot possess the ammunition for the firearm in the District until AFTER the registration process is complete!
The registration process can take weeks from what I understand, but if they get backed up then I think there is a two month mention in code and in a rare circumstance a one year delay is allowed.
There is a fee for the ballistics test when you bring it in for testing.

Don, if your sister wants to buy a rifle at the Dulles gun show, I don't think she can do it because it will take days to approve her application and I don't think that part of the office is open on Friday nights.
What she can do though is hook up with the dealer at the show and just go to their shop in VA the following week if they are not too far away.

Heebs · Nov 25, 2008

Great, thats exactly the info I needed. Now to find a gun that I want that I can actually get in my area.

Sorry for the lack of response, been busy getting my wisdom teeth out

novus collectus · Nov 25, 2008

Heebs said:
Great, thats exactly the info I needed. Now to find a gun that I want that I can actually get in my area.

Sorry for the lack of response, been busy getting my wisdom teeth out

A little bit of advice, if you are buying an AR, you might want to avoid MD unless it is an HBAR. Most AR15 models are MD regulated and I am not sure how they handle out of state resident sales.
Probably cheaper in some parts of VA anyway.

By the way, still waiting for a reply from the MPD about overall lenght with a collapsible stock.

Keep us updated as to how your registering experience went with DC?

Heebs · Nov 25, 2008

As soon as I pick something up I'll post all about it here

novus collectus · Nov 25, 2008

Heebs said:
As soon as I pick something up I'll post all about it here

I was wondering if I could be there at the station when you do the process. I would be interested to see it first hand. (I had only a glimpse of Heller's registration).

novus collectus · Dec 1, 2008

I got a reply to the 80% and stripped receivers. Basically the impression I got was avoid them like the plague in the District. They may consider even an 80% receiver as a firearm and since they cannot be registered without being fired, they are likely illegal to possess.

The finished stripped reciever that has not been registered is definitely illegal. (not sure about a receiver registered when complete and then stripped though)

K-Romulus · Dec 3, 2008

better get those AR's f-a-s-t

Looks like the AR purchase may need to be sooner rather than later (assuming it could be grandfathered, and not having seen the actual bill)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR2008120203709_pf.html

D.C. Council Supports Gun Control Revisions
Verizon Proposal Also Gets Backing

By Hamil R. Harris
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, December 3, 2008; B01

The D.C. Council voted unanimously yesterday to give preliminary approval to legislation that would require gun owners to renew their registrations every three years and to notify police annually whether they still own guns.

The Fire Arms Registration Amendment, which would also ban assault weapons, was described as building on legislation passed by the council in September to adhere to the U.S. Supreme Court ruling overturning the city's 32-year handgun ban.

Yesterday's vote came during a 10-hour meeting as the council navigated a crush of legislation before the end of the year. It has scheduled a meeting for Dec. 16 to handle legislation on housing and school suspensions, among other issues. (...)

Yesterday's gun legislation is the next step in the District's gun control efforts. Its earlier attempts before the September legislation prompted a gun-rights activist to sue and the U.S. House of Representatives to pass legislation that would have all but stripped the city of its regulating authority. The lawsuit is pending; the congressional measure died in the Senate.

Since September, D.C. residents have been allowed to register magazine-loaded semiautomatic handguns as well as revolvers. The legislation banned magazines that are capable of holding more than 10 rounds of ammunition.

Yesterday's legislation would also require firearms owners to take a safety course and undergo a background check every six years.

After the vote, council member Phil Mendelson (D-At Large) said in a statement, "Today's vote puts the District at the forefront of using regulation to reduce gun violence, rather than the simpler, prior approach of hoping that an outright ban will be effective."

Mendelson is chairman of the Committee on Public Safety and the Judiciary.

Alan Gura, however, said requiring repeated registration will bring the city more legal problems. "None of this is going to reduce crime, but it is going to increase litigation," said Gura, the lead counsel for the plaintiffs in the Supreme Court case. "While I have not studied the bill, requiring people to register and re-register every year is harassment."

Andrew Arulanandam, a spokesman for the National Rifle Association, said he had not seen the legislation. Still, he said, "if the mayor and the city counsel continue to defy the United States Supreme Court, the National Rifle Association will seek a remedy either by legal or legislative means."

"What they are trying to do is to make it difficult as possible for law-abiding people to own a firearm."

After last night's meeting and in response to gun-rights advocates, Mendelson said in an interview, "We have been mindful of the limitations set forth in the Supreme Court case, and the bill falls within that." He said the bill also will be "refined" before the final vote. (...)

The gun bill may be B17-1039, the only legislation that was discussed on 12/2 that is NOT available for reading on the DC Council legislation website (the last available bill is 1037).

novus collectus · Dec 3, 2008

After the vote, council member Phil Mendelson (D-At Large) said in a statement, "Today's vote puts the District at the forefront of using regulation to reduce gun violence, rather than the simpler, prior approach of hoping that an outright ban will be effective."

Pretty ironic, he admits the previous banning of a type of gun was not the right approach, but then they are talking about wanting to ban another type of gun.
Does the word hypocricy ring a bell?

There is one good thing about an AW ban though, if they pass it and they are sued because of it (which they will be), then the AW ban will be the next case in front of an appeals court or the SC and it is bound to be struck down as a ban on a class of weapons just like the handgun ban was. If this gets decided in the DC court, then the federal ban would be screwed.
I think, just like for the Heller case, the antis are probably looking at this like the DC council are idiots because they KNOW it will go to the courts now and with the current court they are likely to lose.
This might mean every AW ban in every state as well as nationally may become moot.
I bet this will not get passed because the antis in charge will beg them not to. If they lose in DC again, then they have been set back another decade or two and I think they don't want that especially not after their last beating.

novus collectus · Dec 3, 2008

K-Romulus said:
Looks like the AR purchase may need to be sooner rather than later (assuming it could be grandfathered, and not having seen the actual bill)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/02/AR2008120203709_pf.html

The gun bill may be B17-1039, the only legislation that was discussed on 12/2 that is NOT available for reading on the DC Council legislation website (the last available bill is 1037).

I wonder when the public hearing in front of committee is.

K-Romulus · Dec 12, 2008

Update: it seems that the bill is actually B17-1041.

http://www.dccouncil.us/lims/legcouncil.asp?page=70&pageid=b&period1=17&search=&period=

# B17-1041
"SECOND FIREARMS CONTROL CONGRESSIONAL REVIEW EMERGENCY AMENDMENT ACT OF 2008".

Conveniently, the text of the bill is "unavailable."

novus collectus · Dec 12, 2008

I forgot all about the hearing. I should have gone down there!

novus collectus · Dec 15, 2008

The legislation has a deadline of March, so it is just an emergency measure again and not the permanent law they were supposed to pass.
Still no word on if there are any changes. I wonder how we can find out?

novus collectus · Dec 17, 2008

Response to the "pinned" magazines question:

This is not a legal or appearingly legal interpretation, but generally it seems apparent that the law only applies to magazines that can hold more that 10 rounds, so a magazine that is modified to hold less ten rounds or less is seemingly legal regardless of how it was initially made.

In other words, it seems legal to take a 30 round AK mag and either welding it, pinning it or using a follower block to not allow more than ten rounds to be loaded in it and it therefore should be legal to posses in DC.

This means that it is possible to have firearms in DC that they only make greater than ten round mags for like the CZ82 because if this is correct, one could put a follower with an extension in it, or put a pop rivet in the magazine body maybe to keep the follower from adding the last two rounds.

LowRecoil · Dec 17, 2008

The regulations were passed: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/16/america/NA-US-Washington-Gun-Ban.php#

novus collectus · Dec 17, 2008

LowRecoil said:
The regulations were passed: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/12/16/america/NA-US-Washington-Gun-Ban.php#

It still has to have the mayor's signature on it. It is possible Fenty is tired of being sued and may not sign it because the training requirements may not be able to be fufilled since no one may be able to give it, or if it is given out of the District, a lot of people will not be able to take it. It is an undue restriction that Fenty may feel DC may lose on agian and who knows, he might send it back to the council for revision.

Need some help with DC gun laws and gun laws in general!

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