1/2 MOA group at 900 yards with $350 hunting rifle + factory ammo

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  • Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    I have given sufficient proof that 3 shot groups don't hold up/are meaningless.

    So I guess my 3 shot groups when working up my load are meaningless.

    And they don't work.

    Oh well, hits at 1200 yards say differently.

    Yes, there are good reasons to shot 5 shot or even 10 shot groups.

    HOWEVER, a 1/2 MOA 3 shot group at 900 yards is still pretty good performance out of any rifle.

    But feel free to only report 5 shot or higher groups WHEN or IF you actually do some long range shooting.
     

    Major03

    Ultimate Member
    1/2 MOA 3 shot group at 900 yds isn't pretty good performance...it's phenomenal performance! OP, great job and that has to be satisfying.

    Ahhh...looks like the old 3 shot / 5 shot group debate has finally migrated here...

    It's not wrong to say a 5 shot group is a better indicator of the consistency of the rifle and shooter...but I'm with Pinecone...it's still quite a feat of shooting!

    Sooo...well done OP! Very well done.
     

    good guy 176

    R.I.P.
    Dec 9, 2009
    1,174
    Laurel, MD
    Let's see any group of yours at over 900 yards.

    501st doesn't own a gun so stop pestering him. A 3 shot group at any distance is a good indicator of the rifle and the shooter's ability. The wind can be a bear beyond 300 yards. Nice shooting!

    Lew--Ranger63
    US Army (Ret-'84)
    Competing for over 63 years and all with iron sights.
     

    501st

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 16, 2011
    1,627
    So I guess my 3 shot groups when working up my load are meaningless.

    And they don't work.

    Oh well, hits at 1200 yards say differently.

    Yes, there are good reasons to shot 5 shot or even 10 shot groups.

    HOWEVER, a 1/2 MOA 3 shot group at 900 yards is still pretty good performance out of any rifle.

    But feel free to only report 5 shot or higher groups WHEN or IF you actually do some long range shooting.

    If you use 3 shots to gauge your handloads there is no reason why you can't up that to 5 or 10 shots to get better data.

    And don't worry about me. It is not if, but when. And I'll guarantee you that you will never see 3 round groups reported from me.

    Anyways, as you were and keep up your hate of statistics.


    1/2 MOA 3 shot group at 900 yds isn't pretty good performance...it's phenomenal performance! OP, great job and that has to be satisfying.

    Ahhh...looks like the old 3 shot / 5 shot group debate has finally migrated here...

    It's not wrong to say a 5 shot group is a better indicator of the consistency of the rifle and shooter...but I'm with Pinecone...it's still quite a feat of shooting!

    Sooo...well done OP! Very well done.

    5 rounds is just the starting point.

    Also using 5 or 10 shot groups tend to prevent people from making ludicrous claims. As you will see here, the ruger american is pretty good considering its cost, it's ability does not stand out.

    http://www.gunsumerreports.com/review_ruger_american_rifle_p6.php

    501st doesn't own a gun so stop pestering him. A 3 shot group at any distance is a good indicator of the rifle and the shooter's ability. The wind can be a bear beyond 300 yards. Nice shooting!

    Lew--Ranger63
    US Army (Ret-'84)
    Competing for over 63 years and all with iron sights.

    I wasn't aware you were in my residence and were able to make an inventory of the firearms I own. (or apparently don't, I did have that tragic boating accident after all)

    Also why do you hate statistics? Were you wronged by them in some way?
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    If you use 3 shots to gauge your handloads there is no reason why you can't up that to 5 or 10 shots to get better data.

    In theory, that would. But in practice when doing the OCW and shooting round robin style or the ladder method, etc., a 5 or even 10 round group opens you up to plenty more variables.

    Such as: shooter fatigue, change in weather/wind conditions, change in lighting, just to name a few.

    Not to mention the amount of time involved shooting a proper 5 to 10 round group per load being developed/evaluated. Also factor in the barrel life your pissing away doing constant evaluation of pet loads.

    I've come to agree with many of the points E.Shell brings up here - http://www.shell-central.com/Powder1.html - firing that many rounds for load development realistically doesn't make sense.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,642
    MoCo
    why do you hate statistics?

    Don't think they hate them. Most likely don't understand them. It's a pretty open and shut case if one gets it. Try explaining to some people that they could play the same numbers in the lotto again after they just won. Exact same odds the second time (even though the odds of 2 in a row are n^2) but you'll never convince many of that. They just don't understand.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    I don't need to be a math geek to agree that in the big picture, a 3 shot group doesn't mean much in the grand scheme - however we don't shoot in labs with controlled conditions and a minimum of variables.

    Sometimes a 3 or 5 shot group is the best you can manage before you encounter changes in atmospheric conditions or shooter fatigue. Is it ideal?, No. But it happens, often.

    Do you completely disregard what info you can gain from it? I don't. No one else is paying for my barrels and components, so if I have to call it a wrap after a short string, then so be it.

    You want to see longer shot strings? Then pay for my time, barrels and components and I'll gladly shoot 10 or 20 round groups all day long.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    And for the record, I wasn't disagreeing with 501st's message, I took exception to how it was delivered. "It's not what you say, but how you say it."
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,642
    MoCo
    "It's not what you say, but how you say it."
    I get told that in reviews all the time;) Im an engineer, not a social butterfly. I suspect 501 is similar. Something said bluntly or w/o tact isn't a bad thing (unless you say to your wife "I think those jeans make you look fat" and then its life threatening.) Don't have to read into it more than the info presented sometimes. I do understand not everyone is that way. I don't think 501 wasn't trying to be mean. He was stating a fact (bluntly but thats all it was.) W/o a sugarcoating it did rub some the raw way. Its the internet and intent is difficult to convey. Some people jump to being butthurt too quickly when nothing bad was intended (and Im talking about the internet in general, not so much this thread.) I miss prof horseyhead as he was my kind of no bs guy. A grumpy old man at nearly half my age! It was too much from some and hes sadly gone. If people on MDS are truly mean or malicious they get banned pretty quick (for the record, I dont think he was either.) So the folks that have been around a long time we should give the benefit of the doubt. We should all go have a beer and laugh over it;) I know you are a really nice guy as I've met you. I suspect 501 is the same even though I haven't.
     

    TheGunnyRet

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 27, 2014
    2,234
    Falling Waters, WV
    As I read it, BZO is done in a 3 shot group, so a 5 shot tends to reveal breathing interference, adjustment movement, a fly, either way its trying to get that consistency in your aim...Hey I am surprised some even mentioned they shot at 900 yards...Seems that the Forum standard is 100 yds to exploit there abilities when its not really a distance utilizing your "skills"...and I agree though PCness is not for everyone and you have to have some kind of thick skin, if you don't then don't comment...IMO
     

    fidelity

    piled higher and deeper
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2012
    22,400
    Frederick County
    I don't need to be a math geek to agree that in the big picture, a 3 shot group doesn't mean much in the grand scheme - however we don't shoot in labs with controlled conditions and a minimum of variables.

    Sometimes a 3 or 5 shot group is the best you can manage before you encounter changes in atmospheric conditions or shooter fatigue. Is it ideal?, No. But it happens, often.

    Do you completely disregard what info you can gain from it? I don't. No one else is paying for my barrels and components, so if I have to call it a wrap after a short string, then so be it.

    You want to see longer shot strings? Then pay for my time, barrels and components and I'll gladly shoot 10 or 20 round groups all day long.


    You're right - one can obtain some useful information from 3-shot groups - and I might have known a thing or two about math and statistics at one time. 501st supplied some useful reading/analyses, especially with the link of the PDF examining the probabilities of shot groupings (and considered where they impacted a target relative to aim - the other analyses implied they were doing so but primarily focused on groups). I think that we can address some of the issues discussed without formally getting into a stats based discussion with confidence intervals, etc (and me having to do actual homework! lol).

    The way we measure MOA is quick and dirty. With 3, 5, or 10 shot groups, we encircle them, and produce a measurement that shouldn’t be inferred to be directly comparable (i.e. a 3-shot group vs 10-shot group) because of the outlier problem. Take an extreme example, a 1,000 shot group. Just like a 5-shot group will often be larger than a 3-shot group, and a 10-shot group will often be larger than a 5-shot group, a 1000-shot group will be larger than a 10-shot group perhaps 99% of the time. Is the diameter of the 1000-shot group a better indicator of shooter/rifle/ammo/etc accuracy? Of course not - the 1% outliers occur on average 10 times in these large shot groups vs only 1 out of 33 times in 3-shot groups. However if one creates a probability distribution and assesses where a defined majority of the shots fall (68%, 95%, etc - often done as standard deviations from the mean of course), this information pares off potentially confounding outliers and can be used to compare to other multi-shot groups that are analyzed the same way.

    What of the meager 3-shot group? It’s too small to do any useful probability distributions with, so why bother (I think “utterly useless” was the comment upthread)? With this group, the quick and dirty method of measuring the distance between the two shots furthest from each other can be useful, if you recognize the limitations.

    Given that the spread of a 3-shot group is likely to be within the bounds of a 5-shot or 10-shot group, what happens if you double the quick and dirty MOA estimate of the 3-shot group? For example, if one measures 1-inch between the two most separated shots at 100 yards distance, then estimating the MOA<2 is going to be balls on close to containing one standard deviation from the mean of a >10-shot group (same rifle, shooter, ammo, environmental conditions with no degradation to the rifles barrel or shooter’s ability).

    Am I impressed that shooter hit a target at 900 yards with a 4.5-inch spread between shots and was on target? Yes, of course, irrespective of the ridiculous MOA semantics (and as implied above, there is no equals or “is” with MOA - there is either a “<“ or a probability needs to be attached to the number). Would 5-shots have been more useful to measure precision at this distance? As long as environmental conditions remained the same, the barrel didn’t heat up too much and start stringing shots (the Yogi Berra conundrum - In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.), the shooter didn’t fatigue etc. Extrapolating MOA estimates from 100-yards to 900-yards has limitations as well because there are nonlinear factors in play, and one obviously needs to get on target first to measure shot spreads.
     

    chevellenut71

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 4, 2011
    1,832
    Cape Saint Clare / Annapolis
    Kudos, on the results appreciate the info on the rifle, and for those I notice only 100 yard targets "Really" 308 at 100 yards with a scope, that just dialing it in, that's not really utilizing the ability designed into the rifle or yours...Try M16/556, 500 yds no scope just sights its pouring rain in Okinawa till the Starch washes out of your uniform...So whatever MOA he shot that a hell of a confidence boost...to go do it again... in my book...

    Tell em Gunny:thumbsup:
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    Seems that the Forum standard is 100 yds to exploit there abilities when its not really a distance utilizing your "skills"...and I agree though PCness is not for everyone and you have to have some kind of thick skin, if you don't then don't comment...IMO

    With all due respect Gunny, and I'm only speaking for myself here - 100 yards is what is available without making a 2+ hour drive each way. If I had access to a longer range within an hour of home, I'd gladly use it.


    Again, I'm not arguing the message that was delivered by 501st. Just responding in kind to it, comment like an *******, be responded to like an *******.
     

    Hippy

    Active Member
    Mar 11, 2008
    367
    Frostburg Md
    If any one follows the "Short" BR game TB has stated "3 Shot Groups" are telling you the Load works " 5 Shot groups" tell U the Shooter Works"


    Jim
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    At 900 yards, wind is a HUGE factor.

    Reading the wind, and dealing with SLIGHT variations that can open a group up tremendously.

    When I was at Bang Steel shooting at 1200 yards, the wind at the firing point was right to left. Halfway to the target, it was left to right. And at the target it was calm. And all three locations were variable in velocity, and somewhat in direction (swinging through some 30 - 45 degrees).

    So, with such conditions, what does an outlier tell you? Shooter? Rifle? Wind?

    For reference, my .308 load has 0.7 inch of wind drift in a 10 mph direct crosswind at 100 yards. At 1200 yards, the wind drift is 136 inches.
     

    Jmorrismetal

    Active Member
    Sep 27, 2014
    468
    I don't understand how one can say a 3 shot group is meaningless.

    Let's say I pick up a rifle that shoots a 3 shot group at 100 in a single hole.

    Then I pick up another rifle and shoot a 3 shot group that has holes 2 ft or more apart.

    Might not tell you the entire story but one can surmise, in 3 shots what rifle has a chance at being a good shooter and another is a POS.

    If you had 5 rounds and had to pick a rifle to hunt with, what one would you pick? Or would you rather fire a single shot from each and "throw the dice"....that would be useless.
     
    Last edited:

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,642
    MoCo
    So, with such conditions, what does an outlier tell you? Shooter? Rifle? Wind?

    Yes;)
    And its not just the outliers. It affects the 'inliers' exactly the same. ALL of the shots are affected. All effects will make some shots better and some worse. You will not be able to determine which is which.

    To take the shooter mostly out of it, run from a rifle rest like the benchrest guys. Factory test targets use them. To take the wind/mirage out of it, go testing on a cool calm morning. Get up EARLY. That leaves (mostly) the rifle and ammo providing the data. Reduce or eliminate factors you can control to test the ones remaining.
     

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